Classic Adelaide

[sav man]

I didn't think much of the limit at all, and I think the faster cars could could come off more, as they would probably push harder round the corners to keep up with nimble cars, or lose consentration cause their driving along a straight's staring at the speedo.

as stu said accidents happin in corners. WRC cars don't go past 200k, yet they have the biggest crashes of any form of motorsport on 4 wheels.

[Duncan]

I think the various state police will shut down these events before CAMS get around to it. Certainly there are no public road tarmac rallies or hillclimbs in NSW any more (since the death at the east coast classic). suggested events like Race to the Pie get canned.

good ideas to slow things down stuart, if we are to have any chance keeping these events we will have to try things like this.

I've only done targa once of course, but I can guarantee you I never went over 90% on a road stage - probably why I never got about 35th overall or whatever it was. I just can't treat an unknown road the same as I treat a race track I know backwards. Town stages were a different story they were great fun to cut loose

Hope everyone recovers OK in SA.

[t01-100]

duncan's approach is right on, these events can be dangerous, but manage your approach and they can be the best fun!

[Duncan]

well...i had intended to take it easy all along, but its always tempting to let the red mist take over.

But when the suspension broke without warning we had a big crash, and that was on fairly open road. If there had been an edge or trees we would have been straight into them at 140. Ouch.

[t01-100]

sounds familiar, i spun my gtr pushing too hard and tagged a bank... was having a great time before that and the following day when we fixed it!

Edited November 27, 2007 by t01-100

[Roy]

sorry, forgot to disagree with your statement about limited build cars roy!

adr and crash testing has near no part in the safety of any tarmac rally car... in fact a tower to tower cage actually compromises the crumple zones a manufacturer builds into modern car design.

although perhaps not evident on the surface, it must be recognised each serious incident involving a limited build car involves a significant factor other than how the car was built...

I agree that by the time ppl put tower to tower cages in their cars that the crash test results have bene dramatically changed...but my thinking is it serves as the best general rule of thumb that a car has had a level of engineering/safety incorporated into its design to help reduce the risk of injury to drivers. Banning convertibles is silly as MGs, Sprites, MX5s etc is silly as with proper roll over protection i cant see a reason why they should not be allowed to run. And i hear about what you are saying about factors and limited build cars and fatalaties...but...i just dont know. A lot more consideration needs to be given to these vehicles....i wont pretend to have the answers

Now take a limited build Bullet Roadster for example and i would have reservations about letting one loose in a rally, even with roll over protection.... it will be interesting to read the coroners ruling on some of the tragic fatalaties we have seen the last few years.

Re the tyre thing, it seems like a good idea. How do the speed ratings of semis compare with premium road tyres. Are premium road tyres as durable as semis? More? I dont know. Its an interesting proposition though.

And...Race to the Pie should never have gone ahead. I know generally they were intending on using the same stretch of road as that used by the East Coast Rally guys...but from what i saw of the route for the Race to the Pie, there is no way that should be a non navigated event in road cars with only an L2S licence

[Duncan]

Interesting point about L2S, but Targa now only requires national rally license - which you can get by going along to a luff 2 day training course (never ehard of anyone failing it). It struck me that among the experienced drivers there were a lot of new/inexperienced drivers (I don't just mean targa, I mean competitive driving) - and I don't just mean in the rookie rally (no I don't think Dunkerton or Vandenburg are rookies)

[Marlin]

duncan's approach is right on, these events can be dangerous, but manage your approach and they can be the best fun!

Well said. Although sometimes, the best laid plans............ lol

re the 190 kay limit.... will they have radar guns on every straight longer than say, 200 metres? Seems kinda rediclous to me.

[sav man]

Well the paper said that select straights would be radar gunned. And some cars would be GPS tracked.

[Duncan]

tricky spot to park there Ben - would a reversing camera have helped

I only pulled 5th a couple of times at targa tas, I'm not sure how much difference a 180 limit makes. You are just as stuffed hitting a tree at 100 as you are at 200

[Targa Tom]

Well here I go... get the hose out boys.

I will be abrupt because the points can be then absorbed.

The Chooklotto - rumoured 250k spent, hope the guys are OK.

Classic cars on race tyres designed years after the cars, your comment should apply Benno,

The guys in the LHD BMW have crashed the last three years in Targa I know of...

190k limit - If you cant keep the 132k average with a couple of chicanes you are using the wrong piece of road. If there are no roads in your state that fit this criteria - bad luck! You cant have Tarmac events full stop.

Normally just beyond the point you reach 190 is an L3.... now I know what I concentrate on! and it aint the speedo...

Two recent incidents in Tarmac have not been viewed without a certain amount of hysteria... One the guy was having a crack on a drying road in a skittery car after he had spent 30hrs in the previous week in a plain and had arrived from a 12hr out time zone. The second on a stage that averages 90kph in the wet and 110 in the dry. Drop off without run off - wrong road maybe...

It is simple. We two heads have the 3 best Tarmac events in the country... possibly the most suitable roads too. Now two of those have decided to comprimise cars with higher top speed.

If a VW spends 60sec above 90 in an event and a Nisubaritsi 10sec and the VW wins normally wins by 50sec, then that is all about to change... Like what Mr B said

Benno, if you and MP cant impliment stratergies to pick suitable roads - all be it with the odd chicane - to maintain the internationally agreed 132 then I am going to drive to hobart and strangle all your chooks!

ROPS = Roll over protection system, Not fire off the road into a tree system, that would be FOTRITS.

TT's 2BOB

Edited November 29, 2007 by Targa Tom

[Duncan]

I need FOTRIS. sounds safe.

[sav man]

Normally just beyond the point you reach 190 is an L3.... now I know what I concentrate on! and it aint the speedo...

Would that change if you were in 190k restricted events?

Funny you say about the M3, I was telling Travis from boost about the accidents, and the first thing he said was "that m3 always crashes"

Edited November 29, 2007 by sav man

[260DET]

More $ than driving talent? Not uncommon.

[t01-100]

sorry i haven't been on to reply... the joy of moving house!

troy - i get what you mean re low volume cars. they do need careful consideration, but i think a space frame daytona will always be stronger and a safer place to be than a mass produced car with a bolt-in- system... even worst a mass produced open top with a bolt-in half cage.

i saw the bullet at targa the other year, what a car... that driver certainly knew how to turn it up for the crowd... i doubt many people could harness that car, then again few people manage to harness classic v8s or even 911 gt3s!

reports from fatalities have seen safety upgrades such as harnesses, rops, course design etc. many things targa tasmania had already made policies on.

we're yet to do proper testing on premo road vs r tyre, but the results will be interesting... r tyres are really a thing of the last 10 years so is really just history repeating. I think events would be heaps more fun with road tyres (check out pre-1998 targa videos), plus the tyre gives warning before it lets go where as an r tyre finds it limit then flings you off the road before you even know it… a road tyre would be a far better option on wet stages and an r tyre thanks to better water dissipation too.

targa tom - targa tasmania has no intension of following suit with the other tasmanian based tarmac events, that organiser has its approach and octagon has its.

when are you going to get a real car again?

Edited December 13, 2007 by t01-100

[Duncan]

lol big question from you TT, you have turned to the dark side as well

"road" tyres will be interesting and I think its a great idea, obviously there will be plenty of discussion about what makes road v r spec - hope you can make a good clear distinction

[Targa Tom]

sorry i haven't been on to reply... the joy of moving house!

troy - i get what you mean re low volume cars. they do need careful consideration, but i think a space frame daytona will always be stronger and a safer place to be than a mass produced car with a bolt-in- system... even worst a mass produced open top with a bolt-in half cage.

i saw the bullet at targa the other year, what a car... that driver certainly knew how to turn it up for the crowd... i doubt many people could harness that car, then again few people manage to harness classic v8s or even 911 gt3s!

reports from fatalities have seen safety upgrades such as harnesses, rops, course design etc. many things targa tasmania had already made policies on.

we're yet to do proper testing on premo road vs r tyre, but the results will be interesting... r tyres are really a thing of the last 10 years so is really just history repeating. I think events would be heaps more fun with road tyres (check out pre-1998 targa videos), plus the tyre gives warning before it lets go where as an r tyre finds it limit then flings you off the road before you even know it… a road tyre would be a far better option on wet stages and an r tyre thanks to better water dissipation too.

targa tom - targa tasmania has no intension of following suit with the other tasmanian based tarmac events, that organiser has its approach and we have ours!

when are you going to get a real car again?

I know, I hang my head in shame every time I come on this forum...

My one negative about tyres. Most of you would probabley know I used to be involved in bike racing at an international level. We were supported by a leading tyre brand and as such had access to the same tyres as every one else - well the same to look at any how. Only thing was we were on the "A" tyres. Now this meant a lot of accusations and engine dismantling post event... but our engines were always legal. Given the knock on sales to be gained from winning an event like targa on X brand street tyres, I can see the manufactures producing "A" tyres for their supported pilots. Thing is there is no way you will ever know...

Can't wait for the final course to be released Stu, would like to log it before I go OS for work.

TT984

[Marlin]

Thats a really good point there re "A" tyres. What with so many "professionals" increasingly participating in tarmac rallies, a move to road spec tyres would likely result in a cheater spec "A" tyre being available for some and not others. As usual, budget wins.

Take for example the fact that a certain F*deral tyres sponsored R32 GTR drag car running quick times on their "retail" available tyre. These tyres were in fact a specially blended soft compound moulded into the same pattern.

Now Stu, I'm stoked to hear there's no plans to follow the stupid 190 kay limit. It would take away a lot of the excitement of the event. There's dozens of times during the 6 days where we and many other competitors are well over 200, and even well over 250 several times, and in no way do I wanna lose that. Never have I considered these big speed sections the most dangerous.

The best thing to happen to Targa in recent years (and I don't think I'm putting the chicken before the egg here), is the substantial reduction of touring kilometres. I personally have always had an issue with previous year's day 4 morning tour/lunch/Cethana section. Cethana is long, and saps a huge amount of concentration...... difficult to achieve after a long sleepy tour and a gut full of food. In fact, the last two years I've insisted the driver only ate an apple prior to doing Cethana. Hopefully the new day 5 doesn't prove too long though.

Now I was only watching the '92 and '93 Taga DVD's the other day, and that really highlights how far Targa has come. Of course looking back now, there's no way that we would consider doing this event without ROPS/harnesses/helmets!/ etc because it was so, so dangerous, and I wonder if we'll look back in another 10 to 15 years and say the same of open cars/specials/clubman types, particularly those without a full 6 point ROPS?

Now, a further thought, how about max 98 octane fuel is supplied by one event approved carrier, and everyone must drink from the same cup? It might have some effect on the performance of the front runners (and be an additional earner for the event organisers undoubtably), or would it just unfairly hobble turbocharged cars?

Sorry, can't help getting off the intention of this thread, so, for now ....... end rant

[t01-100]

i got talked into the rx7... i had all the intent to screw together a nice and easy disposable gtst!

its only early days on tyre talk, but something to consider and yes much like fuel, true parity of these consumables can only be delivered by limited and well managed supply. there are no right or wrong answers, but we need to develop the future of the sport and not just let it slip away. i've seen 98ron vs 102ron mean 40kws at the wheels on some cars, not to mention the extra $6k+ required in the budget to run it. interesting point re non-turbos, i think they are unfairly disadvantaged against turbos in anycase, a gtr is say 200kws at the wheels standard, with elf/sunoco and the right mods and tuning its 330... an bmw m3r is lucky to pull much over 200 with all the good gear! i actually looked at building an m3r instead of the rx7 sp, but pulled away as power was too limited.

max length targa stages and the shortest possible touring is what we're aiming for. day four next year is gonna be huge... next years course is so good i think I need to slip in my resignation just to have a run!

i was out and about today finalising pre-lim approvals for some new sections which all went well so we're releasing more detail shortly and recce notes will obviously be out for chrissy holidays.

[Marlin]

The more I think about this 190 kay limit, the more it pisses me off.

It's playing right into the hands of the Evo RS/Sti Spec C crowd, with their ultra-short, acceleration biased gearing. And whadya know, "Walkden Rallying" who builds Evo/Sti's and owns Rally Tas/Burnie is championing the adoption of the 190 limit rule.

Hopefully CAMS will alter the rules to allow those with 300+ klm/h Porsches/Lamborghinis etc to alter their diff and gearbox ratios to allow a maximum speed of only 190.

How awesome would it be for the crowds gathered at the lookout at the top of "The Sideling", watching Jim/White/Close bouncing along at 190 on the speed limiter instead of cracking 300 klm/h!!!

not.