Classic Adelaide

[sav man]

I don't think your the first person to comment on Walkden's involvment and how it suit's his cars. I recon it's gunna come back and bite him when all the fast cars that people want too see pull out. It'll have to be renamed to Rally Evo and Rally Sti.

[Targa Tom]

I dont think it will work and in the end we have a choice. Either do it or dont. The Burnie events are only ever practice for us for Targa anyway... hell in RT07 we went the oposite way we thought with suspension just to prove we were going the right direction for Targa...

Having said that I think club "Ben" might be being a bit harsh on Les. Targa West have in my opinion the most difficult job in the country finding roads to satisfy the criteria (I would argue impossible) They announced the 190k limit before RT/RB... but there is one common denominator. And it is not LW. The fact he purchased the events is purely to keep them going not run the down - I know the dirt rally hysteria is "Slow down Tarmac it's ruining our sport" Wank! I dnt even visit their forums any more they are so devisive its like they are arguing chess v marbles.

Do your self a favour boys... C of C at Burnie is Ross Tapper. Google that and you wil get my drift.

TT984

Disclaimer: The views express in this post are mine and mine only.

[Jetwreck]

f**k....that's my old car!!!!!

Hope Adam's OK....shore did stuff it!!!....look's in about the same condition as I bought it from the 94 Targa!!!

Hope he can rebuild it!!

[Jetwreck]

still crying!!!!

Edited December 5, 2007 by Jetwreck

[Targa Tom]

still crying!!!!

Got an email from the lads and apart from a case of WTF, OK. Cant wait to rebuild... Wipe away the tears

TT984

[hrd-hr30]

banning R spec tyres as a safety measure? less traction, less braking performance, and less cornering ability is a safety measure? it would definitely slow times down, but it wouldn't make it any safer to get through a stage!

The big problem with accidents in tarmac rallying seems to be more to do with the driving standard of the average competitor than anything else. Putting these inexperienced amatuers in their expensive, high powered toys on normal road tyres in a competitive situation is only going to end badly.

But personaly I'd support it. It favours those who really can peddle a car - ie it will sort the men from the boys. But for the average competitor, tarmac rallying will be alot more hazardous on normal street tyres.

For those worried about manufacturer backed 'A' tyres and policing what is and isn't an R spec tyre, a simple duro test at the start of the event could sort that out, combined with specifically prohibiting street compound tyres with high rubber to void ratios such as the Federal 595RS and Falken Azenis 215.

I'd be surprised if normal street tyres would cop 5 days of tarmac rallying though. Buffing the street tyres down would be the go for performance and competition longevity I'd think.

This rule would be very good news for any awd vehicle too.

[Marlin]

Wow, that's a statement right there! Those who have done tarmac rallies may agree with me saying agree that;

a. R spec tyres are commonly less forgiving at the limit of adhesion.

b. R spec tyres can be very inconsistent in their grip levels on changable surfaces.

c. R spec tyres can be very difficult to get up to temperature quickly in rain or very cold conditions (sometimes impossible to heat).

d. This attribute above gives R spec tyres little "feel" when cold.

Road legal tyres on the other hand are typically average performers at everything, but they're typically consistent at least, and that's something that's easy for Average Joe to become accustomed to.

Personally I don't want to lose R spec tyres, I like them, but you gotta remember it's not just the so so drivers that fall off the road. And there's not just one reason for most prangs.

[sav man]

up to 1998 Targa cars ran on street tyres, and back then it wasn't as restriced so the cars had more power than they do now. And they seemed to hold up fine back then.

R tyres are shit house in the wet. Fern Glade in Targa this year was like an ice skating ring, tyres were bone cold at the start, and still bone cold at the end.

Having said that, I don't realy want to see R tyres go. But compared to some of the other slowing down options (speed limits, heavier car restrictions) it's not such a bad option.

[Targa Tom]

The big problem with accidents in tarmac rallying seems to be more to do with the driving standard of the average competitor than anything else.....

They may crash, but the two incidents that have focused attentiion on the speed have been gun circuit racers. 05 and the young Cup pilot.

R spec tyres are "????" in the wet Ben? I happen to think they are outstanding! Having done the event 3 years in a 2WD too - the extreme level of grip astounded me. But maybe just brand too...

Get rid of soft top cars in competition class - done. Pick the right roads and massage the Chicanes. Throw in higher minimum safety harware and.... are we trying to make rules to cover the perceived ability of some punters... next thing I will be getting an entry form for the Targa regularity trial!

This may well be our last year - so thankfully it will still be fun.

TT984

[Marlin]

I agree that R spec can be awesome in the wet too..... assuming you can get some temp into them! As Ben said, Fern Glade was a skate rink, but I reckon it would have been on any tyre. It sure didn't help we waited for an hour to start, it was very cold, tyre pressures had dropped way down, and there just wasn't the friction in the surface to get some temp. In fact, I was convinced we were going to crash if we pushed, so we elected to cruise.

As you say TT, chicanes are no issue, in fact I kinda enjoy them, so throw some more in I say if they want to keep speeds down!

[sav man]

It probably was the brand, as they are renowned for bad wet performance.

Dad was driving the 1 & 1/2 wet stages so I can't comment from a driver's point of view, but it felt like the car was sliding everywhere from where I was sitting, and some of the expletieves coming though the comm's indicated the same thing. I've got Dunlops on my car, just waiting for a wet club day/hillclimb to see the diference in grip between the brands.

also the bit between the steering wheel and seat probably helps

[Marlin]

You guys were on RE55's weren't you?

[sav man]

yep

[Marlin]

Yeh I've heard they're pretty ordinary in the wet.

This year (Targa) we were on Dunlop 02G's and we were astounded with how little grip we had in the wet. Although some of it may have been car set-up, our rear springs we thought were way too stiff and they were also binding, so she felt pretty skittish. I've always run on Kuhmo Ecsta in previous Targas and found they have awesome wet grip, but overheat easily in the dry.

For Buller we did some testing, running both Kuhmo mediums and Dunlop's new 03G in hards. Didn't get to test the Dunlops in the wet (have heard they're ok), but they were 16 seconds quicker in the dry (thats a second per kay!) than the Kuhmos, plus they didn't go off at all.

That to me proves how quickly tyre tech moves and increases the pace on tarmac.

[260DET]

Geez and I thought some of you blokes were experts. Its not hard to work out what R tyres are dry orientated and what perform best in the wet. Looking at a Toyo brochure right now and they tell you that

[Duncan]

well its not hard to work out which tyres are better in the wet or dry....the trick would be knowing the weather forecast for 7 days in April in Tassie

snow? 40o? both?

[hrd-hr30]

I classify the R spec tyre being bad in the wet and being all or nothing on the limit as old wives tales. Plus the thing about them only working when they get heat into them. Even cold they're in a different league to street tyres. As a hillclimber I'm very accostumed to pushing hard on cold semi slicks. I've driven on alot of different brands and all have been good in the wet - certainly better than normal street tyres. Only ever an issue with standing pools or running water.

RE55S are great in the wet. I was fastest outright on one hillclimb on a set of RE55S in my GTR. admittedly they were brand new, but there was water literally running down the hills we were racing on!

Do you guys increase your tyre pressures before starting wet stages?

[Duncan]

yeah that probably helps. But any time I've done an event like Dutton rally with mixed competitions you can see it in the timesheets. In the dry cars on semis win. In the wet/wet skidpans etc the cars on road tyres win by a mile.

[Marlin]

Do you guys increase your tyre pressures before starting wet stages?

In a perfect world yes we do and always would. But unfortunately the scheduling doesn't always give us time. We pretty much have to make the call at the start of the day, then make any adjustments at lunch break.

As for choosing the right tyre, as Duncan said a crystal ball would be really handy, as well as a limitless budget to have a set of everything on the trailer.

It's important to remember when talking tyre characteristics that different vehicles (in my humble opinion) can behave quite differently with the same tyre. A 1600kg GTR treats it''s tyres very differently to a 1000kg Lotus Exige.

[Snowman]

Yeah I have to agree about the R Spec tyres / wet weather myth as well.

I saw a back to back test this year at Calder which is a REALLY bad place in the wet due to the VHT they use on the drag strip / main straight and Vin Macaro in his STi was around 5s a lap faster on R Spec tyres than he was on good street tyres. And there was no getting heat into them before heading out.

Having said that I was on R Spec tyres and felt I had no grip at all and all of us GT-R boys struggled big time..... Beaumont in his EVO (on R Specs) flogged us.