Gym And Supplement Discussion

[Birds]

Birds I know about the relation of effort vs results, but particular sets and reps are done to achieve particular results.

on another note, have a read of this, interesting article http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/09/opinion/sunday/dont-take-your-vitamins.html

Not talking about effort, was talking about the important stuff that beginners should focus on more than number of sets and reps.

Interesting article, and I have to say, I used to take a few vitamins...a multi...two vitamin C tablets...vitamin D...I developed this placebo like belief that they were helping me to stay healthy / not catch colds and feel better in general. I weened off them due to lazyness and I feel no different; was probably already getting enough of everything anyway. Lots of unnecessary profit being made by these vitamin companies. In the end most people take them as bandaids simply because they aren't getting them the way they should be; can't be good. Starting to feel the same way about protein shakes.

[Trozzle]

Dont mean to sound like an ass, but since when has human skeletal muscle been capable of hyperplasia?

Everything I have ever seen has shown evidence of hypertrophy only, so you get more sarcomeres (contractile units) within each muscle fibre but you dont get more muscle fibres.

I was going to touch on the same thing, though I thought all you're REALLY promoting with resistance training is hypertrophy, and hyperplasia just happens much much slower (since GH is the only thing that will cause it no?)

Similarly conventional AAS (more so anabolics) like NPP/DECA, Dianabol, and Trenbolone will only cause a more rapid growth of existing muscle cells, whereas HGH is the only way to cause growth of NEW cells.

I use terms like cause very loosely here.

[bozodos]

Not talking about effort, was talking about the important stuff that beginners should focus on more than number of sets and reps.

Interesting article, and I have to say, I used to take a few vitamins...a multi...two vitamin C tablets...vitamin D...I developed this placebo like belief that they were helping me to stay healthy / not catch colds and feel better in general. I weened off them due to lazyness and I feel no different; was probably already getting enough of everything anyway. Lots of unnecessary profit being made by these vitamin companies. In the end most people take them as bandaids simply because they aren't getting them the way they should be; can't be good. Starting to feel the same way about protein shakes.

If you ate enough meat, milk and eggs, you wouldn't need protein shakes either tbh. Most of us have them for the convenience factor (apart from idiots who actually think that they have some kind of magical effect).

I've noticed among my skinny friends, mass gainers are all the rage, especially the Dymatize one that claims to have 1900 calories in a shake :S

[Birds]

Mass gainers work; they stack on pounds and fill you full of carbs and fat. I gained 10kg on one lol

Whether it's a good idea for someone or not is debatable...but at least it's upping the calorie intake for skinny fkers who claim they can't gain weight and don't meet caloric requirements for better performance in the gym. Food is infinitely better of course.

[L33SH]

Not talking about effort, was talking about the important stuff that beginners should focus on more than number of sets and reps.

Interesting article, and I have to say, I used to take a few vitamins...a multi...two vitamin C tablets...vitamin D...I developed this placebo like belief that they were helping me to stay healthy / not catch colds and feel better in general. I weened off them due to lazyness and I feel no different; was probably already getting enough of everything anyway. Lots of unnecessary profit being made by these vitamin companies. In the end most people take them as bandaids simply because they aren't getting them the way they should be; can't be good. Starting to feel the same way about protein shakes.

Why the hell you been telling me to have a protein shake every day then.

[rev210]

Dont mean to sound like an ass, but since when has human skeletal muscle been capable of hyperplasia?

Everything I have ever seen has shown evidence of hypertrophy only, so you get more sarcomeres (contractile units) within each muscle fibre but you dont get more muscle fibres.

I said I was generalising. I deleted the word 'cells' for you, people don't know what sarcomeres are generally. Microtrauma repair isn't hyperplasia. Debate about hyperplasia exsists. Doesn't matter for us in terms of what works at the micro levels.

The concept that the body adapts to both the nervous system training and the microtrauma caused by heavy loads is well established. Microtrauma is the key to strength training in the area of hypertrophy. Treating it as controlled damage helps condition the thinking towards correct training methodology. Most gym goers actually believe they are 'getting stronger/bigger' in the gym. They aren't, they are getting controlled damage and stress it's just the ticket to the dance. Sleeping, resting & eating is the 'growth part'

[rev210]

bottom line is how many people are trying to understand what the optimal recovery periods are for the muscles they have and the movements they do. Coaches take note of progression and adapt for athletes the programs around limits and time frames. Individuals can pay attention to this also and try to figure out the optimum. Arbitary rest periods are just that. For many the same period of time resting is inadequate. It depends on factors including genetic/ diet and the actual effects of the training session.

If you aren't training hard then it's of much smaller concern.

Edited August 30, 2013 by rev210

[No Crust Racing]

Why the hell you been telling me to have a protein shake every day then.

Probs cause as a vegan/veggo (whichever you are) getting enough lean protein is harder, unless you want to eat a bucket of broccoli?

[rev210]

Why the hell you been telling me to have a protein shake every day then.

I'm guessing it's not a 'mass gainer' shake tho'. Different thing.

[L33SH]

Probs cause as a vegan/veggo (whichever you are) getting enough lean protein is harder, unless you want to eat a bucket of broccoli?

yeah true

sorry birds <3

[No Crust Racing]

Her comment was in relation to this Rev.

Not talking about effort, was talking about the important stuff that beginners should focus on more than number of sets and reps.

Interesting article, and I have to say, I used to take a few vitamins...a multi...two vitamin C tablets...vitamin D...I developed this placebo like belief that they were helping me to stay healthy / not catch colds and feel better in general. I weened off them due to lazyness and I feel no different; was probably already getting enough of everything anyway. Lots of unnecessary profit being made by these vitamin companies. In the end most people take them as bandaids simply because they aren't getting them the way they should be; can't be good. Starting to feel the same way about protein shakes.

[Mitcho_7]

I was going to touch on the same thing, though I thought all you're REALLY promoting with resistance training is hypertrophy, and hyperplasia just happens much much slower (since GH is the only thing that will cause it no?)

Similarly conventional AAS (more so anabolics) like NPP/DECA, Dianabol, and Trenbolone will only cause a more rapid growth of existing muscle cells, whereas HGH is the only way to cause growth of NEW cells.

I use terms like cause very loosely here.

Theres a few animal model studies that show hyperplasia occurs in skeletal muscle, but in humans I think its hard to actually prove hyperplasia has occured because its hard to count fibre numbers in people that are still alive.

I think it probably does occur in humans to a certain extent but hypertrophy is definitely a bigger contributor to muscle size increases.

Havent really done much on AAS but as far as I know they work by enhancing gene expression to make the body produce more contractile protein in skeletal muscle in response to stress ie weight training. Whether or not that is hyperplasia as well as hypertrophy I dont know. Itd depend on what they do to satellite cells in muscles as id say they are the cells that are going to be able to proliferate into new muscle cells.

[Birds]

Why the hell you been telling me to have a protein shake every day then.

Cause you can't eat meat; most people can. You need to keep your protein levels up even if you're not exercising. Will help with maintaining muscle built prior to injury period.

[Mitcho_7]

I said I was generalising. I deleted the word 'cells' for you, people don't know what sarcomeres are generally. Microtrauma repair isn't hyperplasia. Debate about hyperplasia exsists. Doesn't matter for us in terms of what works at the micro levels.

The concept that the body adapts to both the nervous system training and the microtrauma caused by heavy loads is well established. Microtrauma is the key to strength training in the area of hypertrophy. Treating it as controlled damage helps condition the thinking towards correct training methodology. Most gym goers actually believe they are 'getting stronger/bigger' in the gym. They aren't, they are getting controlled damage and stress it's just the ticket to the dance. Sleeping, resting & eating is the 'growth part'

I dont think it really matters whether its hypertrophy or hyperplasia to most people in the long run. What matters is weight training combined with proper nutrition and rest can increase strength and muscle mass.

[rev210]

Theres a few animal model studies that show hyperplasia occurs in skeletal muscle, but in humans I think its hard to actually prove hyperplasia has occured because its hard to count fibre numbers in people that are still alive.

I think it probably does occur in humans to a certain extent but hypertrophy is definitely a bigger contributor to muscle size increases.

Havent really done much on AAS but as far as I know they work by enhancing gene expression to make the body produce more contractile protein in skeletal muscle in response to stress ie weight training. Whether or not that is hyperplasia as well as hypertrophy I dont know. Itd depend on what they do to satellite cells in muscles as id say they are the cells that are going to be able to proliferate into new muscle cells.

The key I was trying to focus on was the treatment of strength training as a form of controlled 'damage' .

As you say , the study of the growth or not of additional cells in living humans is a tad difficult. This 'grey area' means there is plenty of bulldust science in the world of bodybuilding. It's about selling a different kind of cosmetics.

There is plenty of sports science covering the recovery and increase of strength in study form. As it relates to the decrease and then increase of strength over time following a session. Thats probably enough to go on for most, given human experiment to look deeper into muscles when this is the case, is not going to happen real soon.

[rev210]

I dont think it really matters whether its hypertrophy or hyperplasia to most people in the long run. What matters is weight training combined with proper nutrition and rest can increase strength and muscle mass.

I matters if you are not mindfull of the fact that you are damaging the body to stimulate it. That basis gives great benifit to how you plan and adapt training shedules. It's ignored. People alter diet and reps and weight to suit. Not rest. To me thats a gap.

[No Crust Racing]

[bozodos]

i saw this article, and thought of Markos raging lol http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/injury-prevention/10-Risky-Workout-Moves.html tl;dr don't do below parallel squats or military press (among others)

rev I think a lot of regular people are starting to realise that growth doesn't happen in the gym these days, but I personally find it hard to not be doing something for my 5 days of the week.

[No Crust Racing]

Noob question, and I might be misunderstanding if there's sarcasm in there Boz, but I thought going below parallel was a good thing? I actually find it harder to stop at parallel and it feels like you knees would get flogged out quick doing so.

[Trozzle]

Noob question, and I might be misunderstanding if there's sarcasm in there Boz, but I thought going below parallel was a good thing? I actually find it harder to stop at parallel and it feels like you knees would get flogged out quick doing so.

I think he was just TL;DR'ing the topic of the article as it's stupid haha...definitely sarcasm.