Gym And Supplement Discussion

[Birds]

Three rules:

1. Muscles will only grow in size with more food. Now here's where it gets tricky: it can be, all other variables held constant, easier for fat people (who are probably consuming more protein and calories on the whole) to gain muscle size than skinnies, who are usually at or below maintenance and don't know the meaning of the phrase "lots of food". So body fat, to a degree, can make a difference simply because of your eating habits.

2. Putting on size with strength is, to a degree, inevitable. You can't be squatting 220kg and not have a decent set of quads to back it up. You can't be benching 150kg and not have some mean triceps. So get used to the idea that, if you want to be this strong: There is only so much a muscle can change about it's structure before it needs more size to keep up with the increasing workload. There are only so many calories your muscles can thrive off before they need more energy to push through a strength plateau. Strength gains are possible without, but difficult when maintaining the same protein and food intake (again, depends on your current diet, as per rule 1).

3. Training in certain set and rep ranges can have an impact on size and strength; hypertrophy versus strength training. There is plenty of consensus that high set, high rep workouts (along with eating lots of food) are the size builders and low set, low rep workouts are focused on strength. If you're aiming for the strength with as little size as possible, you want a powerlifting routine. Why? Look at some of the competing lifters Markos posts...now some of them a quite big, as per the second rule...but it is in these guys' interests to turn up to a competition as strong as possible, whilst staying within their designated weight class. They don't want a lot of hypertrophy, because the extra size will have them competing unnecessarily against stronger guys in the next weight class.

[Birds]

Ergo, Dan, if you want strength with as little muscle size as possible, I would eat a healthy diet at maintenance or cutting level, stick to training in the ranges that target strength, and learn to deal with the fact that you will either be slogging away damn hard to make small gains over long periods of time, or eating some more food and gaining some size to break through strength plateaus easier. Personally, I would just eat...if Kate doesn't like your newfound size, it's not impossible to scale back and lose muscle. I've lost a lot of upper body size over the 4-5 months I haven't done upper body training. I've retained 85-90% of my strength, but the size has sunk (I train in hypertrophy set/rep ranges, but limit growth with food = low body fat despite a not so fantastic, carb heavy diet).

[No Crust Racing]

I find some of this stuff really contradictory at times, not pointing the finger at your Birds. Maybe for me it's more food related.

I've found that lighter weight and more reps leans me off a bit and tones me up, heavier weights and lower reps bulks me up a bit and tends to see me look larger. Intermediate weight but lots of reps and sets sees me getting bigger again.

I'll just have a play around with a few things and see what happens, I wouldn't mind dropping a 1kg or two.

[No Crust Racing]

Yeah fair enough, as above will try and few things and see what happens.

As I mentioned, I'm a lighter build guy and my body would happily sit in the high 70s with no exercise so to be in the high 80s is over 10% more than what might be "normal" for me.

I'm on the edge at the moment where I still get quality time, but there are comments that come along with that about being too bulky, again her view not mine but I value it because she values mine with her appearance.

[jangles]

Yeah fair enough, as above will try and few things and see what happens.

As I mentioned, I'm a lighter build guy and my body would happily sit in the high 70s with no exercise so to be in the high 80s is over 10% more than what might be "normal" for me.

I'm on the edge at the moment where I still get quality time, but there are comments that come along with that about being too bulky, again her view not mine but I value it because she values mine with her appearance.

do you feel you have 10kg more muscle by doing weights?

[No Crust Racing]

God no, I'm sure there's a healthy element of fatness in there too. Something else that needs to be controlled.

Looking at 78kg photos of me though most of the size increase in my shoulders/chest and butt. Seems to be where I show any changes first.

Again, not really he point though, the question was about how I get what I want. Not I'm awesome and have put on 10kg of pure awesomesauce muscle mass - which I haven't. Just giving basis for comparison/context.

Which others have had a crack at answer, so thanks

Edited September 19, 2013 by ActionDan

[Mitcho_7]

I find some of this stuff really contradictory at times, not pointing the finger at your Birds. Maybe for me it's more food related.

I've found that lighter weight and more reps leans me off a bit and tones me up, heavier weights and lower reps bulks me up a bit and tends to see me look larger. Intermediate weight but lots of reps and sets sees me getting bigger again.

I'll just have a play around with a few things and see what happens, I wouldn't mind dropping a 1kg or two.

There is no such thing as toning up. Muscle tone is not under voluntary control, it is pre determined by higher brains centres and relies heavily on reflexive muscle spindle feedback to be kept in range.

You either get more definition due to a drop in bf% or your muscles have grown.

[No Crust Racing]

*sigh* I'll be more specific for you then.

"I've found that lighter weight and more reps leans me off a bit and tones me up in terms of how I look. Due to a drop in bodyfat percentage and/or an increase in muscle size"

[Mitcho_7]

How long have you been lifting for now?

[No Crust Racing]

Why? In the context of what I want, how is that relevant?

Genuine question.

I'm happy sharing almost any detail, but not of it's going to fuel some rant that's not helpful to my question.

I do not mean that offensively .

Edited September 19, 2013 by ActionDan

[Mitcho_7]

Just asking because when you are newer to lifting results come much faster in terms of strength and what you see in the mirror.

[rev210]

Just stay the same dude. It sounds like your not really wanting to change things body composition wise. Even getting leaner will cause wardrobe changes

[No Crust Racing]

Mitch :

Fair enough.

When I was younger and trying to be a hero wearing tight shirts and eating everything I went from 65 or so to 93 or so KG, of course it was not all muscle but it was mass and that's what I wanted. I was only doing 3x10 at 100kg on the bench and was curling like a mad kent, doing 99% upper body work 3 times a week, didn't know what a squat/DL was, all I did leg wise was light lunges and running. That was in my early 20s.

I ended up with some typical curl bro injuries and got out of gym stuff for a good 2 years and tended to all my bro injuries. Around Feb of last year I got back into some light weights and on MArch posted a build thread about trying to get some balance in a home routine, realised I'd been missing out on all the good compound exercises, started some of those. Broke my leg and dislocated my ankle in October of last year not long after buying a squat rack. Since then have nee doing physio/rehab etc to try and get my legs and pelvis working properly.

Upper body stuff still goes OK, legs are very weak and need a lot of work, that is, 100kg squats are serious work for me, no shame in saying that as I was a prolific squat dodger, but trying to learn how to squat well on odd mechanics due to those injuries is taking some time and causing strains here and there. Not strong by any stretch in the upper body either, but it goes better than lower and I tend to see results reasonable well at least in my head. ATM I can do at least 8 reps at 116kg on the bench, maybe 9-10 come Monday if Rev's training method is teaching me anything at all - then did another 10x1 reps on the last session (Marko said that by the time his guess bench 100 they are squatting and DL'ing a ton more than that, I'm backwards). Can do 25-30kg weighted chins something like 8x8x6 or ther abouts. Did 16 pull ups without having tried them before then moved on to some weighted chins for the challenge thread, and can usually do 3x8 around 35kg on the weighted dips, getting close to 3x5's at 40kg. So as I said, not strong in any way on any motion but doing some gym means I've gotten larger in the upper body.

I was also running about 80-100k a month before breaking my leg, not fast, just 3-4k's everyday, for general fitness and the dog.

Rev: That's kind of the goal, I'll drop some bf when I can get back into running, and that might be enough to offset any small gain I get trying to get my legs stronger. As I'd like to at least be able to rep 20 squats at 100 or something, which should be easy but would be a nightmare for me. Prior to hammy issue I was at least doing a few reps at 100 on the squat and about 110 on the DL (which I find easier due to less requirement for ankle ROM).

[jangles]

God no, I'm sure there's a healthy element of fatness in there too. Something else that needs to be controlled.

Looking at 78kg photos of me though most of the size increase in my shoulders/chest and butt. Seems to be where I show any changes first.

Again, not really he point though, the question was about how I get what I want. Not I'm awesome and have put on 10kg of pure awesomesauce muscle mass - which I haven't. Just giving basis for comparison/context.

Which others have had a crack at answer, so thanks

I think your size is diet related, I also don't think you eat enough for what your size is though.

But you aren't willing to change the one thing that can help you get your goals most.

I think maybe your hobby should be your diet and your occasional consideration should be weights?

[No Crust Racing]

So you're telling me I'm fat, but I don't enough enough to be fat.... lol

Wut?

[jangles]

So you're telling me I'm fat, but I don't enough enough to be fat.... lol

Wut?

If you haven't worked it out from the multiple explanations now, to the multiple repeated questions then there is no point trying to explain it again.

[No Crust Racing]

Admittedly not paying enough attention today, busy, but I think I get it.

Diet more important than rep scheme.

[jangles]

Admittedly not paying enough attention today, busy, but I think I get it.

Diet more important than rep scheme.

and the whole adaption thing that's been explained before. it goes both ways. You and I about the same height, you exercise more often, I eat more to maintain a lighter weight.

And no, its not a fast metabolism, I built it up.

So when I choose to cut, I will still be eating around 2500kCal a day.

Same explanation as the 93kg friend of mine example.

He is 92kg eating 1000kCal a day more. Exercise is the same.

[Birds]

Dan I never said anything about dropping the weight as the sets and reps go up to train for hypertrophy. Hypertrophy still requires heavy weight...you can't be pressing 50kg for 10 sets of 50 reps and expect to look huge. Look at how much the IFBB dudes are lifting...the major difference is that they spend 4-5 hours (probably more) in the gym every day, training high volume and isolating every single muscle in their body...they are certainly strong, but they're not training with outrighy strength in mind. Plus they eat absolutely f**kloads of food.

The reason that would make you look smaller is because you are doing volume training which burns a lot of calories, and you are doing a light weight which the muscle does not need to be big to lift.

Now if we keep that in mind, and you instead want to be strong and small...you would look towards the opposite of volume training and isolation movements. This means the major compounds, low set, low reps, heavy weight, maintenance diet...you will be as strong as you can and as small as you can be because you are limiting growth (and strength to a degree) with diet and training in a rep range that supports strength more than muscle size.

Remember, the gym gives your muscles a reason to grow, food gives it the building blocks to do it. You can change variables at either end fairly easily to affect the outcome. I already told you earlier exactly how to achieve what you want, i.e. maximum strength minimum size.

[No Crust Racing]

Food for thought....... Get it..... Yeah I'm here all week

Jangles: so you much weigh less at the same height and are much stronger? Awesome job dude always good to see results for people who are dedicated.

Bird man: Hmm ok. I kind of like low rep scheme purely from a time point of view, but I must eat too much when I do that as I've tended to gain during those phases.

Certainly seems like diet is a big key I'm not paying enoug attention too.