Tarmac Rallying Perpetual Thread

[Marlin]

I had a post with some wonderful insight here too, lost it as well

Nothing with BOTH turbo and 4WD is elligible for Cat 7 Dunc, keeps the playing field somewhat more level.

Sav, have you spoken to TT about the 400R? Surely it's a no brainer?

[sav man]

i'll be contating stu shortly about some of the gts-t rules, to see if i am interprating them correctly. i'll bring the 400r up then

[Marlin]

Just for interest. Over the last couple of days since the ruling re turfing category 7 into early modern has come to light, I've received quite a few calls about it from some VERY pissed off people. I fear that this rule change WILL see alot of valued entrants (and money to Octagon) dissappear.

It really is unfair that people (including myself) have purchased or begun building vehicles with the aim specifiaclly of competing in Cat 7 within CLASSIC outright. To have the rules changed because of a select few whingers is in my mind pretty pathetic. Any form of motorsport needs consistent rules if it's to be a continuing success. Iconic competitors such as Gavin James have told me "they can stick it!, I won't be going back". That is a real real shame.

Additionally, I'm a firm believer that Octagon needs to consider their long-term prosperity. Allowing early Jap turbo stuff into a TV covered class such as Classic outright will attract young blood to the competition because they actually have a realistic opportunity to obtain real money sponsors, which coupled with a cheap race car, will see them compete year in, year out.

Surely attracting a younger age group of entrants who can afford to build a 30k Silvia/Skyline/whatever is more beneficial than pampering the older guys who can afford a 300k early Porsche who surely have only a few years of competing left in them?

I had my car sold due to the announcment, but only withdrew from the deal because there's not another vehicle within cooee that is as cost effective to run for a years racing, regardless of Targa elligability. Withdrawing it from sale does in no way mean I'm competing in Targa next year. Competing in Early Modern against the likes of r Shaw does nothing for me, I want to compete cost effectively against the truly quick blokes, Broadbent/Pye/James, as well as new YOUNGER fast blood that were planning on entering before the rule change.

[sav man]

well it's basicly taken the 944 out as a compeditive car. speaking to people that drive them, their big advantage over a 911 is how they go in the wet. now they will have to compete against awd skylines and subies. I havn't spoken to Kerry Luck yet, but he's campained a gts-t, and a 944 over the last few years, and i imagine he'll be pissed too.

IMO it's a kneejerk reaction to Ben driving his car at 10/10ths, and showing what a gts-t can do with some prep (but not much compared to the 911's), and someone having a real crack. Broadbent, and Pye were not driving at 10/10ths, they'll say they were, but they wern't, and it showed when they over-ran a tired skyline. I didn't see them down at straugn in the dark with their car on jackstands working out how to get the car to last to the end of the event. There was only two cat 7 cars in the top 10 of classic.

I'm still going to run my car, but my aim was the top 10 of Classic (ovisly dependent on how much the field imporves by 2011). If the early modern cars pull their finger out, cat 7 will not stand a chance.

[Marlin]

Exactly.

Cat 7 cars won't stand a chance no matter how hard they're driven in early modern once people wake up to the fact that you can run a 996 Turbo in early modern! And once again, it'll be cheque books that take the wins.

As Gavin said to me this morning, it leaves a bunch of cars and good drivers in no-man's-land.

[Kel]

Just for interest. Over the last couple of days since the ruling re turfing category 7 into early modern has come to light, I've received quite a few calls about it from some VERY pissed off people. I fear that this rule change WILL see alot of valued entrants (and money to Octagon) dissappear.

It really is unfair that people (including myself) have purchased or begun building vehicles with the aim specifiaclly of competing in Cat 7 within CLASSIC outright. To have the rules changed because of a select few whingers is in my mind pretty pathetic. Any form of motorsport needs consistent rules if it's to be a continuing success. Iconic competitors such as Gavin James have told me "they can stick it!, I won't be going back". That is a real real shame.

Additionally, I'm a firm believer that Octagon needs to consider their long-term prosperity. Allowing early Jap turbo stuff into a TV covered class such as Classic outright will attract young blood to the competition because they actually have a realistic opportunity to obtain real money sponsors, which coupled with a cheap race car, will see them compete year in, year out.

Surely attracting a younger age group of entrants who can afford to build a 30k Silvia/Skyline/whatever is more beneficial than pampering the older guys who can afford a 300k early Porsche who surely have only a few years of competing left in them?

I had my car sold due to the announcment, but only withdrew from the deal because there's not another vehicle within cooee that is as cost effective to run for a years racing, regardless of Targa elligability. Withdrawing it from sale does in no way mean I'm competing in Targa next year. Competing in Early Modern against the likes of r Shaw does nothing for me, I want to compete cost effectively against the truly quick blokes, Broadbent/Pye/James, as well as new YOUNGER fast blood that were planning on entering before the rule change.

Well said Benny. I have alot of respect for what Octagon does but this change is pretty disapointing.

It's getting harder not to think the rules are adapted just to keep the loudest, sorest - and dare I say with my tongue in my cheek- biggest paying losers happy.

God forbid we should actually have to have cars built in the same era actually compete against each other in the same class!!!

[Kel]

so does this latest change make the R32 the most *banned* car in motorsport (or had it taken that title already )

maybe it's time to start a poll to decide the car who has has the most regs changed to stop it from competing and beating the cars it was built to race against. the audi quattro and the porker 956 might give the 32 a run, but my money's still on the old girl

wonder if nissan will ever stop being penalised for building a car which was 5 years ahead of it's time

[DJRIFT]

so does this latest change make the R32 the most *banned* car in motorsport (or had it taken that title already )

maybe it's time to start a poll to decide the car who has has the most regs changed to stop it from competing and beating the cars it was built to race against. the audi quattro and the porker 956 might give the 32 a run, but my money's still on the old girl

wonder if nissan will ever stop being penalised for building a car which was 5 years ahead of it's time

thats right kel. it sux balls that the r32 gets a caining all the time.

but on a serious not anyone i meet and talk to about motor sport i tell them they just couldnt go past a r32 gtst to start out in. in the tassy circuit racing series there is 6 r32gtst ready to roll. (they are never all there) and with mine not far off being log booked and bennys car that will make 8 in the state rady to roll at any one time. plus the workshop in i only counted 1 of the 2 cars that could be entered if need be. so over 9 cars for tassy motor sport.

Ben was telling me today about the targa ruling and its balls. i have very little respect in some forms of octagon as they are happy to let CHEATING f#@ks in every where but change the rules so that the people that have a chance cant have a chance. simple as that.

[Targa Tom]

Ease up lads.... we still have an event to enter. In this day and age - be greatful. Its not a Nissan conspiracy... just a few blokes putting on an international event in little old Tassie.

Anyone who doesnt do an event because the rules doesnt suit them is mad. You reckon Casey Stoner was stoked when Val en all got the tyres he had been developing for two years??

If it makes you angry and want to stay away... just think, it wasnt that long ago when the R32 had to run in outright on 16" wheels... with pissy little brakes. There was only cat winners acknowledged, and we were up against R33 GTR N1's Now about the only class not on the podium - Service Crews leaving Queenstown Winners"

Just remember when the powers that be close Targa down.... we did it and had fun. Nobody will care what class you was in and who won.

TT984

[Marlin]

I'm not taking anything away from the event Greg, just discussing the rules mate.

It's faintly annoying that you can build a car to comply with the category/rules, only to have the goal posts moved after one year.

It's effectively made some vehicles worthless overnight in my opinion. who'd want to be stuck with a 944 now?

Edited July 31, 2009 by Marlin

[Targa Tom]

I'm not taking anything away from the event Greg, just discussing the rules mate.

It's faintly annoying that you can build a car to comply with the category/rules, only to have the goal posts moved after one year.

It's effectively made some vehicles worthless overnight in my opinion. who'd want to be stuck with a 944 now?

Cant please all the people.. We were faced with re-speccing our car showroom when it went to 98, Our choice I know, but it cost 6k! Anyone who has a vehicle that isnt competitive from a rules perspective isnt going to win... if you are hell bent on winning, you build a winning car. However, if you are in a 944, you just look at Matt Closes times from a few years ago when he beat JR on Cygnet and say "These could be a top 15 car" Any car in the top 15 isnt going to be far away from the front of their class.

And dont say - oh that is Matt, he is quick anyhow..... Anyone who thinks they are going to turn up and run in the top 15 in HCR32 is in for a shock!! - WAIT FOR IT........................because they dont all drive like Ben Wooster!

TT984

[Marlin]

Thanks for accolade mate, cheque's in the mail

I see what you're saying, and I'd hope to run toward the front of the pack again in Early Modern if I return next year.

I'm probably being a little selfish, as I've been working quite hard (and getting REALLY close!) on obtaining a really good sponsor, real money, like 50k for a two year deal, due to the amount of television coverage we obtained this year, and would have hoped to repeat in subsequent years.

Now with the rule change, and knowing the TV special has a finite amount of time to cover the event, I'm not confident that our new category, Early Modern, will get a run.

If 10 blokes wake up to the fact you can run a 996 Turbo in early Modern do you think the HCR32 would still be up there in the top three for even a chance of TV coverage? Nah, I don't think so either.

Sure, I could change the car, and trust me I have looked hard at it, but given the budget (to run for a year, not just purchase), if I was to sell the HCR32, I'd find very quickly that I couldn't afford to run the event.

That's really my argument, this equation; Targa+TV coverage+cheap car+young entrants = a prosperous future for Targa.

I know motorsport is a rich man's playground, but unfortunately for me, I'm not a rich man, and my boyhood dream of Targa needs to be funded somehow. which means for me, a cheap car, and some sponsorship. I'm just a little dirty that I've only had one crack at the title!

Edited July 31, 2009 by Marlin

[RAZOR32]

thats right kel. it sux balls that the r32 gets a caining all the time.

but on a serious not anyone i meet and talk to about motor sport i tell them they just couldnt go past a r32 gtst to start out in. in the tassy circuit racing series there is 6 r32gtst ready to roll. (they are never all there) and with mine not far off being log booked and bennys car that will make 8 in the state rady to roll at any one time. plus the workshop in i only counted 1 of the 2 cars that could be entered if need be. so over 9 cars for tassy motor sport.

Ben was telling me today about the targa ruling and its balls. i have very little respect in some forms of octagon as they are happy to let CHEATING f#@ks in every where but change the rules so that the people that have a chance cant have a chance. simple as that.

+1 ive also got one nearly finshed and hope to go in a couple of octagon rounds next year and im also going to be navigating in a R32 GTR in targa wrest point and targa rookie next year. Its marlins old blue GTR,

Edited July 31, 2009 by RAZOR32

[Targa Tom]

Thanks for accolade mate, cheque's in the mail

I see what you're saying, and I'd hope to run toward the front of the pack again in Early Modern if I return next year.

I'm probably being a little selfish, as I've been working quite hard (and getting REALLY close!) on obtaining a really good sponsor, real money, like 50k for a two year deal, due to the amount of television coverage we obtained this year, and would have hoped to repeat in subsequent years.

Now with the rule change, and knowing the TV special has a finite amount of time to cover the event, I'm not confident that our new category, Early Modern, will get a run.

If 10 blokes wake up to the fact you can run a 996 Turbo in early Modern do you think the HCR32 would still be up there in the top three for even a chance of TV coverage? Nah, I don't think so either.

Sure, I could change the car, and trust me I have looked hard at it, but given the budget (to run for a year, not just purchase), if I was to sell the HCR32, I'd find very quickly that I couldn't afford to run the event.

That's really my argument, this equation; Targa+TV coverage+cheap car+young entrants = a prosperous future for Targa.

I know motorsport is a rich man's playground, but unfortunately for me, I'm not a rich man, and my boyhood dream of Targa needs to be funded somehow. which means for me, a cheap car, and some sponsorship. I'm just a little dirty that I've only had one crack at the title!

Think the amount of coverage you received was excellent... but I would not bank on it. Even cat leaders/winners received a lot less. A cynical person may suggest the synergy between the coverage producers and one of your sponsors may have contributed… that and the fact you were flamboyant in your approach. We have just done a review and spoken to Rocket… while our car looks tough in the flesh, it looks pox on telly – its not just results that get you on the box. I actually got more coverage for Bunnings when we went off in South Riana ’05 than most.

Sponsors can leverage the event – like Bunnings did – without you winning.

Just buy a 996 for your girl… Remember they don’t depreciate like some stuff… and in the words of Dougie Briese, “You to can be a Porsche tosser”

TT984

[sav man]

the doco is getting shorter and shorter every year. you'll have to do lots of skids/fences to get good coverage. late 90's doco's were 70-80 min, this years would have only been about 30mins, after you take the car profiles out. having said that the dvd is meant to have a longer doco.

[DJRIFT]

after having a chat with a bloke last night i realised that Cat 7 car had this comming as they arent a a classic car really as the year 83-90 is really the the birth of Electronic fuel injection, ABS trac control ect so they were sure to be out front compared to most of the classic cars.

that said its nothing new for targa to change its rulles and move goal posts frequently. we are only into 2nd year of AASA and while things are all sweet now how long before it goes back to CAMS. it may never but it could happen.

just have a quick chat to Barry Oliver and he will point out all the major changes targa has gone through over the years.

i suppose its its own sport really and the heads make the rules.

anyhow id be more likely not to enter because of all the cheating blokes in this years events and especially how it was all handled. i say bring back CAMS so there is some firm guide lines and cars are actually checked.

[Targa Tom]

anyhow id be more likely not to enter because of all the cheating blokes in this years events and especially how it was all handled. i say bring back CAMS so there is some firm guide lines and cars are actually checked.

Cheats.... Quinny? dont reckon, Whitey, no, Jamie, No, Young Quinny, No BW, would have to say no.. Pye/Broadbent - No idea... but probabley not, Us (was hoping the rumoured funded protest was forthcoming - nothing like free maintenance), No, Tony W No, Brendo No, Batsey No...

So who are all the cheaters??? I would suggest like always they are talentless people who run mid field. Then assume the quick guys are cheating. Not that long ago two LWR cars were dismantled post event RT - only to be found stock.

The people who hope to run at the front dont cheat, beacuse they fear all their hard work turning to dust in the post race wash up.

We even went to the expense of putting a new std engine loom in our car, because it had previously been cut and shut for logger sensors etc more than 100mm from ECU - thats how paranoid of being checked we were....

Anyhow, I have stated on here before - I belive everyone I race against is legit. Makes me wonder why people see it so differently.

TT984

[Targa Tom]

Cant edit so read with above... If you dont like Octagon run events, you can vote with your money - we have another fantastic race run under CAMS in Tassy that could do with numbers. We have already lost Rally Burnie through lack of support. So I will no doubt see some familiar names on the RT entry list when it is released to ensure it doesnt go the same way. Plus - with bugger all people the chances of winning are higher, and there is also TV coverage on Fox etc.

TT984

RT58

[sav man]

I think your kidding yourself that there wasn't any cheats on the podium. from the podium this year this is the wrong bits on cars i picked up

cam cears

turbo's

exhaust's

AFM's

injectors

pod filters

adjustable suspention arms (not bushes)

diff ratios

i'm not saying everyone was cheating.

one of the crew of the podum finishers was talking to one of our crew at longford, and said the car infront of them must be cheating, cause their car wasn't legal. they didn't know they were speaking to a cew member of another team at the time.

i think we are allowed to complain about the rule change in the week at was announced, and i'm sure most of us will get over it before next eyars event. but if you rock up to targa in 2010 still complaining about it..more fool you for entering.

[Marlin]

I'd really have to agree with TT and say that I don't really believe there's too much filthy cheating up the front of the field, as TT says everyone's paranoid about being checked, and as I said to someone when they questioned my front mount (without properly consulting the rules), if you cheat, you're really only cheating yourself. I must say though that the onus is on the entrant to ensure his car is legal, not the scrutineers. We can't expect scrutineers to be versed in every vehicle's specifications. That's what protests are for. Fortunately, one thing I do know there will be a crackdown on next year is Evo strokers, it's easy to check, and we know there's so many out there because it's cheaper to build a Crower stroker than rebuild to genuine spec! we followed a "showroom" Evo last year for alot of the event, well bugger me she was a good one! She'd turn all for tyres in second gear leaving the line! Our 360AWKW 34 GTR wouldn't do that! lol

And damo, as for the advent of tech in the Cat 7 year range, mate, take a look under Rex's car, she's basically a 996 GT3 under there, yes, it has ABS too... not alot of 1974 left in that baby And please don't think I'm taking anything away from Rex, he's a fabulous steerer, and as I said to him it was a real honour to even get close to him.

And Savman, I agree with you too, this will blow over in a week or two, and yes of course, if there's a budget, Timmy and I will be back until I can't get into a car.

Edited August 1, 2009 by Marlin