Power curve Sydneykid

[BU5TER]

Originally posted by Sydneykid

Hi guys, comparing maximum power at one single rpm point is a waste of time.  Tell me the average power over the useable rpm range, now that's something meaningful.

Let's compare this R33 GTST..................  

At 7,000 rpm it has 310 rwkw  

At 6,000 rpm it has 250 rwkw  

At 5,000 rpm it has 195 rwkw  

At 4,000 rpm it has 93 rwkw  

That's an average of 212 rwkw.  

With this R32 GTST..........

At 7,000 rpm it has 280 rwkw  

At 6,000 rpm it has 250 rwkw  

At 5,000 rpm it has 200 rwkw  

At 4,000 rpm it has 160 rwkw  

That's an average of 223 rwkw.  

Ignore the weight difference for a moment, which car is going to be faster?  The R32 gives away 30 rwkw (11%) max power but I know it's faster (times prove it) and that's because it's average power is higher.

Hope that adds to the discusion

Sydneykid going from the info you quoted above can you tell me, if a friend of mine is making

At 7,000 rpm it has 320 rwkw

At 6,000 rpm it has 296 rwkw

At 5,000 rpm it has 230 rwkw

At 4,000 rpm it has 114 rwkw

Which is a average of 240rwkw

Whats your thoughts on those figures? and does the turbo seem well matched for the engine going from the info supplied?

[Sydneykid]

Hi Buster, assuming that power noses over noticeably past 7,000 rpm, I reckon the power band could be improved. Without knowing the components involved it is difficult to say with any clarity, but sacrificing 20 to 30 rwkw at 7,000 rpm may well yield 50 to 60 rwkw at 4,000 to 4,500 rpm. It's probably a good adrenalin rush the way it is, but I reckon it would be faster with a more progressive power band.

If it was an auto or had a close ratio gearbox it would be OK for some purposes. As an all round daily driven road, track and circuit car, it wouldn't be my choice. It must be tricky to drive as it doubles its power (114 - 230) in 1,000 rpm (between 4,000 rpm and 5,000 rpm). That makes throttle control very difficult, and in the wet, well, let's not go there.

Tell me more..........

[BU5TER]

At 4000rpm the turbo hasn't kicked in yet is why it doubles, and going from your info in the quote the average power is what matters so why is your 223rwkw average good but this 240rwkw average only OK?

The power pretty well levels out at 7000rpm making 327rwkw and keeps around that to 8100rpm

The car is drag/street in that order and from my experience is good to drive on the street as the suspension and tyres he uses are set up for tratcion and not track

[Sydneykid]

Thanks Buster, so the power curve doesn't nose over at 7,000 rpm. If it holds over 300 rwkw to 8,000 rpm, then it has a wide enough power band (5,000 rpm to 8,000 rpm) such that it won't suffer after upchanges in a wide ratio gearbox.

If it doesn't hold over say 280 rwkw to then it will suffer, it would be faster with less max power and more mid range. I don't know how fast your example is over the 1/4, but an R34 with second power curve in my previous post (average 223 rwkw) did an 11.9 at 120 mph recently. The other example (average 212 rwkw) can't get under 12.5 at 118 mph. Both of these are on Nitto radials.

Hope that helps some more.

[BU5TER]

Its still got 308rwkw at 8300rmp so it holds well I think

The R34 you speak of ran that time at Heathcote ,what was the best he did at Eastern creek? If my memory serves me well it was a 12.4 so to be fair we'll compare that time against the 12.2 at 118mph with Nitto's that this car has ran at EC with a driver thats far from great and doesn't get to travel from state to state playing with his car and set up

The point i'm trying to make is quite often you have been less than flattering about the Trust TD06 turbo and and how it doesn't perform and should only be on a Mitsubishi Canter as its a truck turbo but from what we've just compared it seems to be holding its self quite well against your times and averages quoted

[BU5TER]

Oh and might I add the 12.2 was ran at low boost which is 280rwkw so its still far from running its best time

[Roy]

The TD06-20g (not 25g) on an RB20 dosnt fall off boost when changing gears at 7,800rpm (or as close to as possible, in the lower gears it kind of revs out quickly)

It falls right back into the meaty range of the turbo too, and at 8psi its an amazing improvement over stock.

My opinion is it will be perfect for drag, and for the street, still nice and tractable. In a rolling race... i dont care. It is plenty responsive for overtaking so its good by me.

I will find out next week what its like at Wakefield. If the gearing is ok at Wakefiled, then im sure it will be fne at Eastern Creek.

[Sydneykid]

Hang on Buster, I don't recall saying a TD06 "doesn't perform". What I do say is "I think there are better turbos around for less money".

If this car has that sort of performance with a new TD06-25G (even more so for 20G) then I would strongly suggest it would be both faster and more responsive with a new Garrett GT3040 for less money. Plus I would guarantee that the GT3040 would be still running perfectly, long after the TD06 needs a bearing rebuild.

Sorry, but I don't think 116 rwkw versus 160 rwkw at 4,000 rpm is "holding its own". We have one car that has 40 rwkw less max power, but has 44 rwkw more at 5,000 rpm, yet runs similar times at EC. I know which car I would rather be driving.

As for comparing 1/4 times, I agree with you, different drivers, different tracks and different days make it a bit pointless.

Hope that clarifies my point of view.

[Roy]

From my experience, and the research i did...

...maybe paying trade prices the Garret turbo is cheaper then a Trust equivelant, i dont know.

But i couldnt afford a Garret turbo setup, and espeically not HKS, despite my wanting a 2835 setup for my RB20.

Like many on this forum i was happy to use 2nd hand parts, so for a little over the price of a Garrett GT30 Ball Bearing Turbo i was able to get a Trust turbo/manifold and wastegate. And when checked out by the experts it was in perfect order.

The fact that the Trust turbos can be rebuilt for $400, buying a 2nd hand Trust Turbo is a safer option then 2nd hand Garret/ HKS/ Apexi equivelant.

Also when doing some research the main advantages of the BB turbos are the ability to reliably run over 1.2bar of boost, and run more extreme turbine/compressor matches as the ball bearing cartridges handle loads much better then plain brass bush bearings. As for response, some readings attributed this more to the aerodynamics of the turbine/compressor then the core used, that said i cant see how a BB core wont outperform bush core.

My engine isnt destined to run any higher then 1.2bar, so with a good oil cooler, and good quality regularly changes oil im hoping to see good reliability.

Im not stating Trust is better then balh, blah, blah, but for my requirements, the Trust option was best.

You get what you pay for no doubt, something ppl are very ignorant of as by nature many of use chase the impossible deal.

But for a street car that does track work in the hands of a novice driver (a huge difference from when a professional/experienced person drives) i couldnt justify the additional expense of a Garret turbo when in my hands there was a cheaper option with equitable, or marginally less performance.

[BU5TER]

Fair enough Sydneykid but how about in future you think of this thread before you start telling everyone that the TD06 is a truck turbo or not suited to a RB25 as some of us are very happy with them and I think I have just proven why

My turbo is a new TD06 25g I didn't say 20g

I can get a new td06 25g off Nengun for $2600 delivered

and I just called GCG Turbo's and was quoted $2960 for a Garrett GT3040 so IMO the TD06 is not bad value

And when that GT3040 needs rebuilding what would the cost be compared to the TD06 being rebuilt?

[2rismo]

So the TD-06 is cheaper and can be innexpensively re-built? AWESOME!

The Garrett BB cores are throw aways aren't they? That sucks! Bring on the bush bearings for me!!!

Adrian

[BU5TER]

Originally posted by Sydneykid

Sorry, but I don't think 116 rwkw versus 160 rwkw at 4,000 rpm is "holding its own".  We have one car that has 40 rwkw less max power, but has 44 rwkw more at 5,000 rpm, yet runs similar times at EC.  I know which car I would rather be driving.

Come off it Sydneykid you pick the one RPM point your car is better and they are not similar times at all as my car is far from running its best time as I ran the 12.2 at low boost and done a 1.8 60ft what did yours do?

Oh and you forgot to mention you are comparing me a once a month racer with a small budget, to the HPI R34 GTT with a huge budget and time to race interstate and explore every option to get faster so sorry if I think I am holding my own against someone like that by running a faster time then them at Eastern Creek

[BU5TER]

Originally posted by Sydneykid

Hi guys, comparing maximum power at one single rpm point is a waste of time. Tell me the average power over the useable rpm range, now that's something meaningful. end quote

And have a look at who's now quoting one single RPM point BWAHAHAHA

[ed]

This is a pointless debate IMO.

The turbo isn't be all end all, you have to look @ other components as well.

Sydneykid: who does the twin dumps on the RB25's for you guys? I'm interested in one. PM me

[Sydneykid]

Hi Buster, let me through a thought at you. If you have a car that is "easier to drive", not peaky, bogs or wheelspins, slow response, requires perfect gear changes or it drops off boost etc, it is easier for a "part time" driver to get good times out of it.

Let me give you an example, we have a semi professional driver in our team and she can extract far more speed out of any car than I can. When the car is tricky to drive, she is miles faster than me, but when the car is easy to drive the gap is much smaller.

If you want some second hand price comparisons, I recently bought a HKS exhaust manifold, nearly new GT35R, wastegate and dump pipes for less than you paid for the TD06. Comparing used parts prices is a waste of time, it's all about opportunity and timing. Something that sells for $2K today, can be had for $1K tomorrow, if the seller is desperate.

BTW (only a small point) the price for the TD06-25G from Nengun doesn't include Import Duty, Customs Clearance and GST. Whereas the GT3040 does, so you will find the Garrett is in fact cheaper.

The R34 Heathcote times were 11.9, terminal at 120 mph, with 60ft of 1.897 (from memory). Now this would tell me that you are faster for the 60ft, so you have better launch and traction. So I don't think you can blame your slower time on the Eastern Creek lack traction. But for some reason the ET is higher (I don't see your terminal speed). This would indicate to me that, over the whole 1/4, your car has lower average power than the R34, hence the slower ET.

There are of course other possibilities but they don't support my argument, so I will leave them to you.

Hi 2rismo, I have never seen a Trust turbo cost substantially less to rebuild than a Garrett. But I have seen them require constant rebuilding, where the Garret BB last. That's exactly why ball bearing turbos were invented, durability. Nissan stated this many, many times when they released the ball bearing turbo Skylines at 0.6 bar (not 1.2).

Bottom line, if you are happy with your car, the way it performs and the amount it cost you, that's the most important thing. What others like me think is irrelevant, as long as you are happy.

Hope that all makes sense

[rb20-calais]

relax guys,

/me sobs

Evan

[BU5TER]

My downfall was that I'd just put in a C's shortshift 2 days earlier and was changing gears very gently so I didn't miss a gear like I did in the previous runs, my mph was 118 and if your car has so much better low down power shouldn't it have a better 60ft then mine? And as I stated above I was running at low boost which is 280rwkw so more than likely yours did have more power on the 2 runs we're comparing

And once again what is the best time the R34 has ran at Eastern Creek?

So what your saying is that a car like mine that the power comes on quite late and hard is harder to drive? So it is holding its own?

What is the HPI R34 to you? did you tune it or help set it up? as you seem quick to use it as a reference but can't seem to understand that with the amont of money, research and development that has gone into that car it should be a lot faster then my old TD06 but for some reason it isn't? So its either that i'm the best driver in the world or the TD06 is not a bad turbo and and is holding its own andyou've been wrong in your previous posts about it being a good truck turbo only

[rev210]

Buster,

The 60ft time is more an indication of good traction not at all bottom end power, you leave the line with revs the more you can hold onto with the tyres the better.

Given you had a marginally better launch, eastern creek or not, and a lower terminal speed, you where (perhaps only on that day) making less average power than the R34GTT if the R34 weighs the same as your car and not less. Also if the temperature and altitude factors where about the same. Here in australia all the strips are about the same elevation I believe. In the old days ravenswood dragstrip (now gone) used to be a few metres below sea level from memory.

Eastern creek is can be bad for a launch some days, the day of you low 12 you did pretty well though.

[RNS11Z]

Originally posted by Buster

At 7,000 rpm it has 320 rwkw  

At 6,000 rpm it has 296 rwkw  

At 5,000 rpm it has 230 rwkw  

At 4,000 rpm it has 114 rwkw  

Which is a average of 240rwkw

Very similar to the figures my car is making. I personally think its great to drive on the street. You can choose to put around or go all out. And you dont have to hear the blow off valve noise all the time.

[rev210]

the td06 isn't a bad turbo either