New Rotors Or Full Brake Upgrade

[Aidan]

G'day guys, I'm looking to upgrade my brakes and I was wondering what would be suitable for my needs. I have a Series 2 R33 GTS-T with stock rotors and calipers. I'm looking to get my car up to about 300rkw and so I thought it would be wise to do my brakes first. I'm trying to decide if I should get new Rotors or a Full brake kit. If I go for new brakes, I'd like to keep it under 2k, but if new rotors will do me fine, that would be great.

Alternatively, I was also looking at finding myself a set of GTR calipers and buying some new groved/dimpled rotors to suit.

What do you guys think?

[andymoocow]

Hi mate, i have a R33 with 245rwkw and i do a fair bit of track work on semi slicks as well as street driving on regular tyres.

My brakes consist of Slotted front and rear rotors, MOTUL RBF600 brake fluid (think thats what its called), Race brakes RB74 pads front and back, braided brake lines, and a brake master cylinder stopper.

These are more than adequate for my track days and the car pulls up extremely well time and time again with close to no brake fade. I am generally quite hard on brakes so they do cop a good beating. Sure the brakes dont look HUGE behind the wheels but they sure do get the job done.

Total price for this would be well under 2 grand for everything fully installed.

Hope that helps.

[andymoocow]

Do you take the car to the track or is it purely street driven???

[evil_weevil]

Yeah I had a similar set up to Andy, but had 10 more rwkw

What size wheels are you running?

If you are running 16's, you are limited to what sort of rotor size upgrades.

I had DBA 4000 all round, QFM pads, braided lines, martini dot5 fluid and lost count how many supersprints and hillclimbs I did in it, and this was a pretty good package for my limited budget and I was running r32 gtr wheels

Another bloke, Ryan (boz22n on here) has more power than andy and me, but runs 17" wheels and has the GTR rotors and brakes AFAIK

[MrStabby]

Step 1: Good high temperature pads and fluid (FWIW i'm using EBC yellows and Motul 600)

Step 2: Get some rotor/caliper cooling/ducting at the front

And only if that doesnt get you where you need to be;

Step 3: Upgrade the fronts. Probably a wank if you're using street tyres, but i love the pedal feel with the G4 330mm kit (which was $2000). Needs 17in rims.

Braided lines and master cylinder stopper will improve pedal feel, but not help you stop any sooner.

[evil_weevil]

oh and tyre choice will help too!

you can have a 5k brake package....but if your running cheap street tyres, you arent going to stop/pull up any quicker.

[Birds]

Very much depends whether you track your car or if it's street driven. On the street it's pointless upgrading brakes. 100km/h in a 300rwkw car isn't any faster than 100km/h in a 100rwkw car.

If you hit the track though...well it is definitely worth upgrading...better than purchasing engine modifications as far as trimming lap times. As has been said, alot of people tend to forget that tyres are part of the braking system too. If you are braking traction / engaging ABS with your current tyres and the stock brakes...upgrade your tyres.

[ssxRicho]

tyres contribute heaps! the stopping power is far greater.

ive got a 33 gtst with lucas pads, stopper, lines and motul rbf600 fluid and by far the federal 595rs have made the car stop faster than all the

others. need some ducts next, they hold pretty well in a 15min session, but always want more.

pads are only $70 a pair and last 3-4 track days.

[Skyalwaysblue]

6 pot brake kit FTW!

Trust me mate, brake is the most important thing for our cars. its a life saver.

[SLAPS]

Slotted rotors and GOOD pads!

[Aidan]

Thanks guys, Have not taken her to the track yet, but i'm very keen on the idea. The car is still fairly stock atm, but I am in the process of upgrading. Currently sitting in the garage jacked up waiting for the new parts. I'm running on 17s atm. Will be looking at looking at new tyres very soon as well. Current set are getting pretty bald.

Hey Adam, how well would you rate the G4 kit? Do you really think its worth it, or will the stock callipers with new rotors do just as well.

Anyone used the D2 Kit?

How well do people rate the GTR Calipers? Are they any better/worse than say a new G4 or D2 kit?

Cheers

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

i have 300rwkw in my daily with dba4000's, good pads and good fluid... works a treat

[Sydneykid]

On the R33GTST I have a set of UAS caliper adaptors with 324mm DBA 5000 series rotors. For the road I use Hawk HPS pads and for the track Hawk HT10's. It also has a pair of UAS air deflectors on the radius rods. No fade, no noise and easily out brakes the tyres, road or track (R type).

Cheers

Gary

[MrStabby]

Hey Adam, how well would you rate the G4 kit? Do you really think its worth it, or will the stock callipers with new rotors do just as well.

Anyone used the D2 Kit?

How well do people rate the GTR Calipers? Are they any better/worse than say a new G4 or D2 kit?

Do a search - the G4 kit has been discussed a lot (i like it a lot for the money). The G4 and D2 kits appear to come off the same production line.

I went from the Sumitomo GTR caliper with adapter and 324mm rotor to the G4 330mm kit and the pedal feel was a lot better. The pad is a fair bit bigger as well.

FWIW The 32 GTR rotors are 296x32 the 33 GTR rotors are 324x30 and the G4s are 330x32.

Also the DBA4000s have failed for many on the track (search for it) so avoid them unless they've fixed the slot design.

[evil_weevil]

I think they must have fixed them Adam,

Quite a few of us ran them doing 1.13's and quicker at wakie and with no issues at all - over the 3.5 years of owning my r33 I only replaced them once due to wear and tear!

[Sydneykid]

I went from the Sumitomo GTR caliper with adapter and 324mm rotor to the G4 330mm kit and the pedal feel was a lot better.

Most pedal feel comes from the brake fluid condition and the pad compound, very little from the caliper itself. So the obvious question, where you using the same pad compund in both sets of calipers? If not, then the pedal feel comparison is meaningless.

The pad is a fair bit bigger as well.

But is it a unique shape where high quality pads aren't available?

That's the advantage of the Sumitomo caliper, there is pretty much every pad compound ever made available for them from every major pad manufacturer.

Also the DBA4000s have failed for many on the track (search for it) so avoid them unless they've fixed the slot design.

Mostly rears from memory. I use 5000 Series on the front for their lighter weight and superior ventilation provided by the separate alloy hats. But I still have 4000 Series on the rear and I haven't cracked a set in over 10 years of using them on all sorts of cars.

Cheers

Gary

[heller44]

I decided to go with the sumitomo callipers and adapters on 324mm discs.. but the bloody things wouldn't fit under my 17" gmax rims.. threw on a set of standard 32 296mm slotted discs with a1rm pads. Feels a hell of a lot better than before anyway but will see when I finally get it out onto a track and play.

[bubba]

324mm DBA4000's on front with 33 calipers (using adapter brackets), Ferodo DS2500 pads, braided lines, master cyl. stopper.

Stops on a dime, even for street driving the extra confidence of the bigger brakes is great.

[MrStabby]

Most pedal feel comes from the brake fluid condition and the pad compound, very little from the caliper itself. So the obvious question, where you using the same pad compund in both sets of calipers? If not, then the pedal feel comparison is meaningless.

I tried DS2500 and DS3000 on the sumitomos, and the pedal felt about the same (and the lines are braided). I've used the "street" G4 pads and EBC yellows with the G4s and they both felt about the same and a lot better. I bleed regularly, so i dont think there would have been much difference there, tho it is possible. Same fluid both times. The caliper just seems more rigid in the G4, but that could be my imagination. When i say pedal feel i'm not talking about how much pressure it takes to cause braking (which will be dependent on pad mu) but how the far the pedal falls when under force, so maybe i'm using the wrong term?

But is it a unique shape where high quality pads aren't available?

That's the advantage of the Sumitomo caliper, there is pretty much every pad compound ever made available for them from every major pad manufacturer.

Not true, the pad is almost identical to AP pads, just need a little bit of grinding of the backing plate to make it sit well.

Mostly rears from memory. I use 5000 Series on the front for their lighter weight and superior ventilation provided by the separate alloy hats. But I still have 4000 Series on the rear and I haven't cracked a set in over 10 years of using them on all sorts of cars.

Mine were the fronts and i thought from memory that the fronts were the issue. A read of the thread will confirm/deny. The fact that they all failed in the same manner along a slot that uses an orientation that's unique to DBA is a fairly strong indication that the design is flawed.

[Sydneykid]

I tried DS2500 and DS3000 on the sumitomos, and the pedal felt about the same (and the lines are braided). I've used the "street" G4 pads and EBC yellows with the G4s and they both felt about the same and a lot better. I bleed regularly, so i dont think there would have been much difference there, tho it is possible. Same fluid both times. The caliper just seems more rigid in the G4, but that could be my imagination. When i say pedal feel i'm not talking about how much pressure it takes to cause braking (which will be dependent on pad mu) but how the far the pedal falls when under force, so maybe i'm using the wrong term?

Your terminology is OK, it's the common use meaning

The pad operating temperature has a noticeable effect on the feel, if they are not hot enough and/or too hot then the pedal feel will be compromised. That's why back to back with the same pad compound is the only true test. A simplistic Mu at one single temperature tells you nothing about how a pad performs at all temperatures

Personal feel is realy too imprecise and often affected by placebo, "they cost a lot so they must be good". My testing process is simple measurement, measure the spread of the calliper when braking force is applied to the pedal. I've carried out that sort of comparison a number of times and the standard Sumitomo calliper comes out very well against all sorts of opposition. It's not until I get to the serious race callipers from AP etc that there is any difference that would be revealed by a simple pedal feel test.

The nest test is pad wear rates, if the pads are wearing unevenly then that is a sign of flexing callipers and.or mounts. I have easily had 30 plus sets of pads through numerous standard callipers and never once had any noticeable pad taper or any other symptom of calliper flex.

When chasing pedal feel in an R32/33/34 the first thing needed is a master cylinder brace, then braided lines, then pad compound, that's where the big gains are to be had. Chasing pedal feel with a calliper upgrade is not good value for money

Not true, the pad is almost identical to AP pads, just need a little bit of grinding of the backing plate to make it sit well.

I didn't say it was, note the wording (ie; "is it") and question mark at the end of the sentence

But is it a unique shape where high quality pads aren't available?

I was asking a question and the answer would appear to be no, it doesn't use an off the shelf common pad because you have to modify them.

Mine were the fronts and i thought from memory that the fronts were the issue. A read of the thread will confirm/deny. The fact that they all failed in the same manner along a slot that uses an orientation that's unique to DBA is a fairly strong indication that the design is flawed.

Some people have had problems and some haven't, we have run DBA rotors for the last 3 Bathurst 12 Hour races, class 1st and 2nd this year, and not had a problem. If there was design flaw then it most surely would have shown up with that sort of treatment. For me the fact is we know how to treat rotors and we don't have problems, so I can draw no other conclusion than they crack when mistreated.

Cheers

Gary