Contaminated Fuel - Help !

[Rusty_185]

Hi all,

Im new to the forum so bare with me..

Basically i need some advice; Over the weekend i filled up my car with contaminated fuel from a servo in melbournes south east suburbs ( sorry cant give names for legal reasons ). The fuel is a high octane ethanol blend and up until now has performed great in my car.. But this time as soon as i started the car it was running rough and once i left the servo i noticed a significant loss in power and then the engine began to misfire and stall and my engine light came on. i immediately parked my car and got a mate to pick me up...( at this stage i just thought it was a fault with my car!) while driving home with my mate, he needed fuel and filled up AT THE SAME PUMP! as soon as we took off, same faults.. engine light, misfires, loss of power.

I have taken fuel samples from both cars and the fuel is yellowish colour with 2 distinct layers which dont blend with each other. (see photos )

http://img34.imagesh...atedfuel002.jpg

http://img16.imagesh...atedfuel001.jpg

The fuel also has a sweet smell ( like ethanol ) which is fair enough because it is an ethanol blend? But ethanol should be soluble with ULP??? I also thought the contaminate could be water or some form of oil however i have tested both substances and they are both flamable. The top layer produces an oily black smoke and the bottom layer has a very clean burn..

I have taken both samples to the servo and filled out some crappy generic complaint form.. They have closed down the pumps and have had there head office come and check the fuel ( though they havnt given me a response yet ).

Does anyone no what this could be and what potential damage it could do to mine or my mates car (R32 GST-T & 03 Subaru Liberty ) So i can go back to the servo with an argument and rough repair costs etc..

Has anyone else had this problem, id love to know what the fuel companies response was??

thanks guys!

[mad082]

i would assume that draining the tank (possibly giving it and the lines a quick flush with regular unleaded) and possibly changing the fuel filter would be all it would need to get running again.

[GTR-N1]

Those images look really dodgy.

I mean I'm a pharmacist - not an industrial chemist; and even I know that there shouldn't be 2 immiscible layers there at all! WTF!

Immiscible means 2 liquids that won't mix with one another.

This has to be followed through to the 'n'th degree.

Feel sorry for you & your car; mate's too. There'll be other complaints too. Someone's head needs to be

Looks like the whole fuel system will need to be cleaned out IMHO with pump & filter replaced & that's a MINIMUM.

I'd get an NRMA (or equiv.) report too with their free legal team backup. NRMA (or equiv.) will have an occasional service centre if you're close.

Keep receipts so that when the fuel is analysed, THEY PAY!

[Rusty_185]

Cheers for the help guys...

Id imagine it wouldn't have done much damage as ive only driven the car about 5km since filling it. But ur right Terry, there should never be seperate substances in fuel.. which is why im worried about just cleaning out the fuel system and running it again. If that contaminant is something corrosive or silicon based it may stay lodged in the cylinder, clog up the valves, blow by the rings... any number of catastrophic possibilities!

ive called ACCC and there about as helpful as a brick..basically said the fuel comp may pay for the repairs or they may not.. and if they dont you could take them to court but it may be a drawn out process..

Might give RACV a call and get them out to diagnose the fault. a document stating the fuel is the cause would back me up a bit.

worst comes to worst ill advertise the company thats selling it .. hmm maybe even a call to today tonight.. they love this sh*t lol

ill keep you posted

cheers

[mad082]

if you are worried about fuel sitting in the motor, disconnect the CAS and turn the motor over. this should empty out most of the fuel out of the cylinders (there wouldn't be much to start with.

[Zardos]

Hey Rusty can you please PM me the details of the place where you filled up.

Thanks

[Rusty_185]

Hey Rusty can you please PM me the details of the place where you filled up.

Thanks

Hey mate, im really worried about naming the company in case it comes back to bite me later.. this may go to court so i need all the defense i can get.. id PM u you but coz im new i hav to have 10 posts before i can do it..? dunno y? but ne way...

lets just say, be very weary of any fuel from service stations in the patterson lakes area.. ( that should be generic enough ) )

cheers

[Rusty_185]

if you are worried about fuel sitting in the motor, disconnect the CAS and turn the motor over. this should empty out most of the fuel out of the cylinders (there wouldn't be much to start with.

thanks mad082, thats a good idea! ill do that tonight!

cheers mate

[raps86]

at my old work we had a couple of cars come in with missfires and when i took fuel samples it had the same thing like an oil ressidue at the bottem of the sample. to get rid of it all you will have to pull the tank out and clean it pull the injectors out and get them cleaned and pour sum injector cleaner into the fuel lines and blow them through with an air gun 2 clean the oil out and change the fuel filter. the fuel they filled up with was e10 from a servo that had opened up the week b4.

[Rusty_185]

at my old work we had a couple of cars come in with missfires and when i took fuel samples it had the same thing like an oil ressidue at the bottem of the sample. to get rid of it all you will have to pull the tank out and clean it pull the injectors out and get them cleaned and pour sum injector cleaner into the fuel lines and blow them through with an air gun 2 clean the oil out and change the fuel filter. the fuel they filled up with was e10 from a servo that had opened up the week b4.

Yeah thats possibly what this could be.. e10! i did a simple test last night using a measuring cup; had 50ml of water in it and marked the level, then added 50ml of the fuel to it. As ethanol blends with water, the water level will increase and the fuel will stay on the top as a seperate layer. This gives a rough idea of how much ethanol is in the mix.. well from this test it looked like close to 80% ethanol.

I know its a crude test and theres probably alot of variables... but interesting none the less?

[skins]

Yeah thats possibly what this could be.. e10! i did a simple test last night using a measuring cup; had 50ml of water in it and marked the level, then added 50ml of the fuel to it. As ethanol blends with water, the water level will increase and the fuel will stay on the top as a seperate layer. This gives a rough idea of how much ethanol is in the mix.. well from this test it looked like close to 80% ethanol.

I know its a crude test and theres probably alot of variables... but interesting none the less?

Stupid answer but,

Could it be diesel ? It's yellow in colour

[Hakosuka22]

Hmm quite wierd. I was thinking along the lines of diesel also but did'nt want to seem silly either. : b Im sure you would never punish your car like that...

I work with aviation fuels on a daily basis and dont deal with ULP much. From the images though it seems that there is definatly an additive that has separated within the fuel. What that is? Who knows without testing it in a lab. Its hard to tell from the image but it could be contaminated with water. Most of the time water is separated from the fuel and will always sink to the bottom, however it can become entrained, therefore not visible with the naked eye. The servo "should" be doing daily checks for water, but they may have blown it off.

Id confirm that they have tested it for water first. If not get hold of a shell water detector test/or similar and test for water. Eliminate that. Thats basically all you can do yourself the rest will need to be done in a lab. I wouldnt put my money on water. This fuel could have been crossloaded with something else and contaminated it, had an incompatable additive added to it or not properly tested for contamination.

Hope this helps and you get your line back on the road. Let me know how it goes. Ive heard of a few similar stories from mates and would like to see how it works out.

Cheers.

[Rusty_185]

think i may have found the answer.... have a read of this, the first problem is "phase Seperation", exactly whats happening with my fuel!

How E10 Can Damage Your Engine

The negative effects of E10 fuel can cause older engines many problems and can damage internal fuel system parts or engine components. Below is a list of what one should expect to encounter at the expense of using ethanol blended fuel:

General E10 Problems

1. Phase separation (P/S) of gasolineWill cause two layers to form - gasoline and alcohol/water. The hygroscopic ability of alcohol will cause a decrease in octane while also causing your engine to run on pure water.

2. Water contamination (W/C) of gasolineAs previously states, the ability of alcohol to attract water will cause gasoline tophase separate and form two distinct layers. This is more prevalent in marine engines, but can also occur in automobiles that are seldom used or driven in high humidity areas. Remember: engines aren't meant to be used with water.

3. Decreased fuel efficiency and mpgAlcohol gives off less energy during the combustion process, meaning that more alcohol must be used than gasoline to drivethe same distance. E10 fuel can decrease fuel efficiency by up to 20% given the application.

4. Vapor lock or fuel starvationVapor lock refers to when water is attracted into the fuel tank, causing the gasoline to phase separate and the water layer is sent to the engine. An internal combustion engine is not meant to run off of water, therefore causing serious damage to the internal parts.

5. Decrease in octane Because alcohol attracts water, the two separate from the gasoline and cause the octane to decrease from the fuel.

6. Decreased shelf life of gasolineAt optimal conditions, the shelf life of conventional gasoline is only 90 days. However, due to ethanol's ability to attract water and phase separate, the shelf life of gasoline is now drastically reduced to around 1-2 weeks in automobiles and even less in marine or vented engines.

7. Decreased life cycle of parts and engineEven though conventional gasoline is also a solvent, the extreme solvency of alcohol causes unnecessary wear on internal fuel system parts. Up to around 2003, most auto and marine manufacturers did not create internal fuel system parts with the intention of running E10, therefore older engines are hurt the most by the use of E10. Even now many newer vehicles are having issues running E10.

Parts Damage and Engine Damage

1. Wear and damage of internal engine partsBecause of the chemistry of alcohol (i.e. it combusts at a higher temperature than gasoline), there have been some cases where spark plugs, pistons, and even the main engine blocks have been damaged by the use of E10.

2. Damage to metal, rubber, and plastic parts of fuel systemAlcohol's high solvency causes many internal fuel system parts to deteriorate faster than normal and may even fail under normal operating conditions. Recently, manufacturers have been using more durable parts in order to combat the solvency of ethanol.

3. Corrosion of metal parts in fuel system and engineThe ability of ethanol to attract water can cause corrosion of metal parts in the fuel system, also affecting drivability and engine performance even more.

4. Oxygen sensor damageOlder vehicles were not designed to run on such oxygen-rich fuel, thus causing many oxygen sensor problems during the emissions process. Expect to replace these fairly soon after the switch to E10.

5. Carburetor/fuel filter damage, including cloggingE10 causes all the gunk and garbage inside the fuel tank to become free, flowing through the fuel system and clogging the bottlenecks. In fact, ethanol is the same thing as many carburetor/fuel injector cleaners that claim to give better performance.

6. Clogging and plugging of fuel injectorsSee above. Be wary of fuel injector cleaners that contain alcohol, since ethanol does the same job for free.

7. Destruction of certain fiberglass fuel tanksSome fiberglass fuel tanks (mainly in marine engines) were not designed to hold alcohol. The fiberglass coating may break loose and literally destroy the engine.

E10 Drivability Issues

1. Engine performance problems and lack of acceleration

2. Hard starting and operating difficulty

3. Stalling, especially at low speeds

[Wacky Dee]

and this is why you should never run anything but high quality PULP like BP Ultimate. If you seriously put an E10 blend in your skyline you should be shot.

[.:: GimpS-R34 ::.]

ive called ACCC and there about as helpful as a brick..

highlighted for reference

[jase-r34]

From what I've read I'm assuming it's Shell V power ( The 100 octane one, I may be wrong though!) as it's the only high octane e10 blend that I know of.

And that's the reason I only run BP ultimate.

I really hope everything works out though mate and the servo pays for any repairs to both your cars.

[Rusty_185]

new update..

the fuel company has now declared liability, saying the fuel is severely contaminated with water.

They are sending out a private assessor to look at the damage to my car... then the insurance company will arrange to pick up my car and pay for the repairs!

so hopefully this will be all over and done with soon and i can get back on the road!!

But keep in mind guys, this problem is not isolated to independent service stations or ethanol blend fuels.. this is a problem that can effect any service station from any supplier.

According to this fuel company its somewhat common.. all it takes is a poorly fitted cover, alot of rain or a crack in the tank to cause water contamination like this?

Personally i will never use anything other than premium 98 from the big suppliers in future. A lesson well learned i think!!!

cheers for all the help guys.. ill let you know the outcome

[GTR-N1]

^^^ Good to hear!

Good to be scientific.

Good to persevere!

[Hakosuka22]

Ahh nice. Shouldnt have put my money on water. lol

Very good outcome. Hope all goes well with the car.

[Rusty_185]

cheers guys!

quick question.. i may have choice of repairer, can anyone recommend a good workshop in the southeast Melbourne area??