Mark Webber Attacks 'nanny State'

[Wheezy]

China, where real freedom exists

[Birds]

And if the tank doesn't run you down, you simply won't be heard from again

To be fair, being indigenous in Australia circa 1869-1969 wasn't a huge deal better in terms of freedoms

[alr33x]

And if the tank doesn't run you down, you simply won't be heard from again

To be fair, being indigenous in Australia circa 1869-1969 wasn't a huge deal better in terms of freedoms

now theres a topic i could go on about for hours but id likely get banned haha..

[frozenpod]

There is a big difference between visiting China and living there as a local. I can do you one better, as what I say comes straight from the mouth of someone who regularly spends 2 months in China and 1 month in Australia on a constant cycle for business and residential purposes. This gives him a pretty good reality of comparative freedoms between the two nations. Not that it really matters to me because I think freedom is a subjective thing and grass can appear be greener from both sides. I just think it is absolutely ridiculous to declare Australia (or Victoria for that matter) an overregulated place robbing us of our freedoms. It's just a few whingers who've never seen real restriction and overregulation and don't realise how good we actually have it compared to the rest of the world. In this case some car enthusiasts, who for whatever reason dislike the fact they can't do a burnout on the street?

"Visiting vs living" This was mostly my point, I haven't just been there as a tourist I have lived with locals as they lived, eatten what they eat traveled via there normal methods of transport and been with them to there daily grind and it puts a very different picture on the country.

There is no doubt there are a few areas they need to massively improve on but they are a developing nation and the are heading in the right direction but there method of government/society reformed communist has many advantages over a democrate, capalist and there are disadvantages as well but polictical anaylists are very positive or the hybrid situation China currently has.

When I said this website I meant that as an exaggerated stab - there is ALOT of internet restriction where it matters, given the internet is supposed to be the uncensored medium of free information. Almost anything mainstream related to free media including Wikipedia and Facebook, Twitter, MySpace, Youtube etc.. Now I don't like the way Australia are following suit with regards to internet censorship - so if I agree with you anywhere it's that we are heading in that direction with some things but we are a far cry from there yet.

Yes there is some strange stuff sensors, whilst I was there I was infected with spyware, one of the few restricted sights I came across was almost every anit-spyware anit-virus software website was not available, the other was youtube and some other social networking sight everything else I tried to use was available.

Our internet censorship regulation debate in Australia is a disgrace and is another example of our overregulation.

Your partner's friend owns her apartment, she doesn't own the land it's on though. This also creates the issue of depreciation for a house which is something we seldom see in Australia. Again, there are downsides to every freedom you can claim China has. Nothing is stopping you from working 9:00-4:30 here, in fact, you can work 10 hours a week if you like - go to university at the same time and get a government allowance to support you while you're doing it. Free money. I also don't think you've seen the poorer side of China where they absolutely dwarf us in terms of people living in poverty. I know of the relaxed state you refer to as freedom - this is somewhat superficial, as once you get to know locals and talk to them privately they hate the restrictions. The protest you saw on TV would have had a pre-arranged approval for you can't just pick up a picket and start marching like you can in Australia. In Australia we have a bus driver and a machine that collects the tickets. I can't remember the last time I head about people getting bashed, stabbed or shot on a bus but if China need the security guards on the buses that might be saying something. That said I have seen security guards on buses here before.

They have security guards on there to give the people something to do. They have over a 1 billion people and they need to do something earn money ect this is no different to India or how Australia used to be with having a task broken up into smaller sections done by more people, overtime in Australia this was reduced to improve efficency. China and India given labour rates and cost of living compared with the rest of the world have not had to take this path yet but it will only be a matter of time before they do.

Oh most people don't drink and drive? I wonder why that is. It might have something to do with it being against the law and that is their education of it. Law is one of the simplest forms of education because you learn before you even know why. It is enforced too, as I know of someone who spent half of February in jail for it. So on the topic of freedoms on the road, 250cc motorbikes are the largest you can ride...as opposed to no restricitons here. In Australia we can have a beer or two and trust average Joe to be responsible enough not to exceed his limits. Still, we have alot of full licenced drink drivers caught over the limit - an example of average Joe not being the best judge of safe limits for himself. P platers, not so...given the zero tolerance on drinking it's not surprising we have very few P plate drink drivers.

I can only say I have never seen a breath test, or any form of enforcement related to traffic offenses. As to the person you know who spend half of Feb in jail perhaps this was after they had an accident which was casused by being drunk and had an accident. Perhaps when the police were at the accident sight cleaning up making sure people were ok he was then picked up as a drunk driver and put in jail.

As to this thread back on topic our form of governement is about reducing regulation and control and handing it back to the people. The government no longer own or control essential services such as Teslstra, Power Utilities ect as in our form of governement the theory is to get things started then hand these responsiliblities back to the people in the form of private companies who can then run them independently and more efficently.

Whist on the one hand the governement is doing this on the other they continue to intrduce more and more regulations mostly go well above what is required or are pointless.

An example of good regulation is the R 18+ rating for video games, we currently don't have anything higher than MA 15+ rating and there are many games which have been specially edited for Australia to suit this rating or they were not able to be sold here as the R rating doesn't exsist. There is also the suggestion that some R rated games are being labled MA incorrectly. Having an R rating is perfect example of good regulation that changes and adapts with the change in technology and social behaviour.

An example of very bad regulation is the hoons act brought upon us with a lie and as has been discussed to death is there is no additional laws or regulation ie if you comment an offense under the hoons act before the hoons act you were commiting an offense such as careless driving, dangerous driving. The hoons act is a change in penalities allowing more police powers and IMO I have seen this power under the hoons act to be abused, it is also a buzz word used by police through the media to hip up and legitimise there war on hoons which is purely a revenue raising excerise and has nothing to do with road safety.

Given our method of governement we should be doing the exact opposite and deregulating whilst educating people and allowing the individual to be more informed/edcuated allowing them to act more responsible whilst allowing society to grow and inhance.

Edited April 9, 2010 by frozenpod

[Birds]

now theres a topic i could go on about for hours but id likely get banned haha..

That's another topic for another day, the thread is already on the outer limits of the original post

[alr33x]

too true.. birds

frozenpod you have replaced birds as the king of epic posts..

[shaun123]

So why are we assuming I haven't visited other countries? These countries you speak of, where people are still allowed to make more choices than in Australia...please list some of them as I would like to compare them to Australia on both freedoms and the levels that the added freedoms impact upon - you must recognise that these freedoms have consequences beyond simply enjoying being able to choose what you do.

US and China

frozenpod, i've read this whole thread and i've agreed with you until this post.. I really think you fell on your face with this comment. China is run by one of the strictest regimes in the world. For example:

- China has a strict 'one child' policy which causes baby girls to be thrown away by parents ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1506469.stm )

- China's government censors anything that could potentially contain anti-government media (such as NY Times, Youtube, wikipedia, more @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websi...public_of_China

- Foreign business is pulling out of China due to its regulations (such as Google, Go Daddy & Netregistry to name a few big ones)

Australia is in ANOTHER league when comparing civil liberties against China.

We don't know how lucky we have it here, especially if you haven't been elsewhere and seen how bad it is. The US has its downsides as well.. for one, their education systems sees only the rich being able to afford education while the poor miss out. If i was living in the US - i wouldn't have a chance in hell to have a tertiary education. Not to mention their health system is completely rorted, hell.. Obama recently introduced a bill to make it more similar to the Australian/Canadian health care systems AFAIK.

Although there are a few things that do bug me tho, one being the over enforcement of road traffic laws here in the recent few years. Also, stupid renegade politicians like Stephen Conroy who is so adamant to implement a mandatory internet filter which is only present at the moment in countries such as Iran, China, Burma etc. etc.

If the net filter gets passed then we would officially be a nanny state

Edited April 11, 2010 by shaun123

[alr33x]

bit late on the scene shaun123...

[shaun123]

bit late on the scene shaun123...

better late than never

[Birds]

Better

Than

[frozenpod]

frozenpod, i've read this whole thread and i've agreed with you until this post.. I really think you fell on your face with this comment. China is run by one of the strictest regimes in the world. For example:

- China has a strict 'one child' policy which causes baby girls to be thrown away by parents ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1506469.stm )

- China's government censors anything that could potentially contain anti-government media (such as NY Times, Youtube, wikipedia, more @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websi...public_of_China

- Foreign business is pulling out of China due to its regulations (such as Google, Go Daddy & Netregistry to name a few big ones)

Australia is in ANOTHER league when comparing civil liberties against China.

We don't know how lucky we have it here, especially if you haven't been elsewhere and seen how bad it is. The US has its downsides as well.. for one, their education systems sees only the rich being able to afford education while the poor miss out. If i was living in the US - i wouldn't have a chance in hell to have a tertiary education. Not to mention their health system is completely rorted, hell.. Obama recently introduced a bill to make it more similar to the Australian/Canadian health care systems AFAIK.

Although there are a few things that do bug me tho, one being the over enforcement of road traffic laws here in the recent few years. Also, stupid renegade politicians like Stephen Conroy who is so adamant to implement a mandatory internet filter which is only present at the moment in countries such as Iran, China, Burma etc. etc.

If the net filter gets passed then we would officially be a nanny state

Shaun,

That article is 9 years old and even back then it was probably a typical media hipe up, think of the hoons articles ACA type footage....

I used to think like you and I only knew what I had been told and read.

I haven't been to all of china but I have been to a number of big cities and country cities/towns and once going there I have completely changed my view.

PS whilst I was there I didn't notice an abnormal balance of boys vs girls.

The one child policy is not a policy where if you have more than one child you will have your child or your freedoms taken away or where you are forced to give up your child. As I understand it and I know of a few families that do have more than one child you can choose to have more than one child but you will not receive additional government support which for the lower class makes things very tough. The governement will also support people that the conception occurs when the couple is taking precaustions to prevent pregnecy.

Whilst I am prepaired to believe boys are preffered there is certainly not an abnormal balance of boys vs girls I don't believe girls are thrown away.

The government has been a typical communist government in the passed but in the last 60 years this has been changing. In particular over the last 20 years China has transformed into something quite special and appears to be striking a very good balance between communist and capaltised society where people are free to go about there business on there own not restricked but at the same time the governement continues to expand, build and create what is needed to support new business and allow exsisting business to expand to meet there rapid growth.

Large efforts have been put into basic requirements such as food, water, power and in many ways they are greener and use technology that is beyond what we use. IE electric buses. They are also in other ways very damaging to the environment using largely coal power sations similar to what we use but with a much larger population and manufacturing power requirement.

My only question is, have you been to china recently and for anyone else reading this if you have been whilst you were there what did you do, just to see tourist attractions stay in hotels ect but have you been into typical office work places, factories, peoples homes.

As per the above comment when I did it very much changed my veiw.

[Wheezy]

Sounds like propaganda.

And why didn't this thread get closed / moved to wasteland, it is way off topic.

Vic a Nanny state to commuinst china and its achievements moving into a global economy?

[shaun123]

Shaun,

stuff....

Just before the lock,

here are two articles dated 2010 and 2004 from a quick google search. ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/...plus-males.html and http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39475 ) Many more articles can be found if you type in "China gendercide" into google. I cant even imagine how f**ked up the society is to be even doing this.

you didnt address my other two points at all.. (China's strict censorship & foreign business regulations). Instead you talk about how China is addressing basic requirements NOW, which shows China is still a DEVELOPING country. Its no where near Aust in terms of freedom or living conditions.

Why do you think we have so many Chinese people here?

Why would they come here if China is so free and great?

because Aust is a much better place to live. its one of the best places in the world to live!

[frozenpod]

Just before the lock,

here are two articles dated 2010 and 2004 from a quick google search. ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/...plus-males.html and http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39475 ) Many more articles can be found if you type in "China gendercide" into google. I cant even imagine how f**ked up the society is to be even doing this.

you didnt address my other two points at all.. (China's strict censorship & foreign business regulations). Instead you talk about how China is addressing basic requirements NOW, which shows China is still a DEVELOPING country. Its no where near Aust in terms of freedom or living conditions.

Why do you think we have so many Chinese people here?

Why would they come here if China is so free and great?

because Aust is a much better place to live. its one of the best places in the world to live!

Shaun, your quote is incorrect I didn't say that please edit it.

I have not been to all of China and it is a big place, from what I have seen there is certainly a different environment and feel in different locations as well as development levels. I have asked my partner if the killing of girls still goes on and she said there are rumurs that it still happens in very poor parts of china. Which it appears I haven't been too.

China's censorship from what I know and have experienced I have already commented on in previous posts but I will add a little more to it. I do not know the full extent of it but it didn't come across as a big deal particularly when international news was available on the internet and there was some news from the US on TV. In my use of the internet I only came accross about 3 websites I was unable to use whilst I was there.

Likewise I don't know everything in fact very little about there business regulations. I have seen the infustructure being built and there is still an amazing amount going on to support business. The exact legalitise I don't know but I do know that most people if they can save up a small amount of capital can start there own business.

Durring the 60th Anniversity Celbrations there was American and European spokes people talking about how well china has been doing in providing the infustructure for businesses and how they were leading the world in this area. China has had the highest business growth in the world with many overseas companies relocating to china so there foreign business regulations must be quite good otherwise they wouldn't bother even with the cheaper labour.

Yes they are a developing nation, I have never said that there were not a developing nation infact as you have suggested everything I have said has pointed to China being a developing nation that has been under going rapid growth. I have never suggested that they were a first world nation but something to add from the 60th Anniversity Celbrations there was political analysts which said China was very close to being a first world nation and at there current rate of development it would only be a few years before they are accepted world wide as a first world nation.

As to Australia being a 'First World' nation, and 'China addressing basic requirements' what I said was china has matched there growth to provide for there people. China has had massive amounts of growth and any country to support this level of growth and provide the basic requirements of food and water would be considered a good job but they have also provided the infustructure to allow there country to flurish.

On the other hand have you heard about the water restrictions//water crisis in Victoria, power generation and distribuition cannot meet peak demand, we can no longer provide enough locally produced Fruit, Veg and Fish to meet our demands and we are now importing large qty from US, Thialand New Zealand ect.

Australia has not matched it own growth in providing the basic requirements for the people and in this area we are going backwards.

Something to think about is that when Australia was a developing nation there was no where near as many regulations and people were 'freeer' to do as they please which is currently a simliar situation in China from what I understand. Speak to older friends/family and see what they think about Australia today compared with in the 1960-1980's people that were working adults durring that time that have been to China recently have spoken about China as being like Australia was back then which I must admit I was surprised to hear. Given advancements in technology, economice growth there is no doubt China is going forward at a rapid rate, I am not saying they have everything perfect and we sure don't but they are going in the right direction all they need is a little more time.

As to Chinese coming to Australia yes some do but not everyone wants to leave. My partner parents is a good example they can come to Australia under the current imigration laws if they choose but they have recently decided not too. They were going to come but they have changed there minds I assume as China is getting better all the time and as per below there world experience gives them a much better perspective.

My soon to be father in law works for an agency company providing the interface between manufactures and international buyers and regulalry travels to Australia, New Zealand, Canada, US, UK, Europe.

I have spoken to him about his travels and places he liked ect and he said 15 years ago that he picked Australia for his daughter to become educated and create a life in the best conditions possible so that she could have the best life possible, he said if he was to pick now it would be either New Zealand or Canada or possibly stay in China.

There plan was always to move to stay in the same location of there daughter but as per above they have decided not too.

[bozodos]

thanks for multiple tl;dr posts that everyone but Birds is scrolling past. Try and keep it succinct.

[alr33x]

what the fk is tl;dr ? see that shit everywhere..stuff the rest of this thread i aint no bible reader

[Basti]

too long:didnt read

[alr33x]

oh right.. cheers for that

why the f**k does everything need abbreviating jesus cant keep up

[bozodos]

haha that's a pretty old one dude

[xALmoN]

because if its not abbreviated, it'd be too long to read.

anyway, i do love china, some parts anyway,