Water/meth Injection

[Chris32R]

Thought I'd make this thread so that I can get as much info as I can to help make my decision. Basically looking at buying a water/meth setup for my R32 GTR and want as much info as possible to see if it is the right setup for me.

I will be running -5 turbos on my forged bottom end with tomei type B poncams and full exhaust, intake, etc... on standard intercooler. Car is used only on weekends and track days.

Please let me know your thoughts, info, opinions on going this route...

Thanks

[TiTAN]

what exactly are you looking at the WMI setup to do? is it instead of race fuel? instead of E85? to get more power out of pump fuel?

it reduces detonation and allows you to run more ignition timing. it does this regardless of what bolt ons you are running

[tridentt150v]

I can't say, my control unit is back in the States getting repaired

[PROXIMITY]

their was a guy on the forum using it on his 33 with great success, i think from memory was around 40kw or more once tuned.

USERNAME might of been FULLBOOST not %100 sure.

[tridentt150v]

Mafia had it too, there are a few on here using it. Anyone that uses it loves the stuff.

[DJRIFT]

i know of half a dozen race cars in my area using it.

the kits have all come from the states and are grate to install. come with all necessary bits and pices.

i know of a few different branded ones being used all with similar results.

well worth it for any track car thats for sure. anything that can lower the intake temps ect is good.

and id say running the stock cooler will also help. while they dont do a bad job they tend to get heat soak on the track.

[sav man]

Dad ran one of these in his Targa car this year http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/

It allowed him to run 22psi all day long on 98 (instead of 19), and an extra 20rwkw. So in total it gave the car an extra reliable 40rwkw in total from the extra boost, timing, and octane boost.

the Kit he got was cheaper than most, and realy well put together.

[Chris32R]

Have done plenty of research now and I think it is great for what I'm after.

Couple of questions:

Where can i get methanol from and what is the best water/methanol ratio mix to go with? I have read of some people going 100% methanol but wasn't sure if this is correct and what's the difference of not mixing with water?

What kits do you guys reccomend and any places locally that sell?

I take it that you wouldn't need to worry about meth levels getting low on track days as it only uses small amounts? Any idea on how often you need to fill?

That kit does look good sav man. I was looking at the Aquamist products as well so now I'm scratching my head on which kit to go for.

Cheers

[jarrod83]

i was actually thinking about making a similar thread.. im also looking into a water meth injection kit, have put bulk research into it over the last few weeks.. have found alot of useful sites with some great info

Heres a good article by AMS performance looking at the performance increase on their EVO when using 93 RON pump gas, goes into great detail about knock from higher combustion pressures and and how WMI can go about reducing it

http://www.amsperformance.com/pdfs/maxpower.pdf

http://not2fast.com/ this site has heaps of the old NACA reports and some other interesting info in particularly this one:

http://not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml you can enter in all your car details.. engine size.. boost pressure your planning to run... your turbos compressor efficiency at that boost... intercooler efficiency etc etc.. and gives you all the temps in and out of the components, you can then move the WMI to either pre turbo, pre intercooler or post intercooler and change the water/meth ratio and the amount and it gives you the corresponding drop in temperature.. Its not an exact science.. as it doesnt account for alot of things.. like the air becoming 100% saturated and the changing properties of air with temperature.. etc etc.. but if you put in some realistic values you can get a pretty good approximation to how much water/meth you will need to get the intake temps down to an acceptable level...

I also attached a picture of a car of combustion pressure verse crankshaft angle at normal combustion, advanced 3 degrees to slight knock.. then advanced another 3 degrees to aggressive knock, then with WMI added and advanced roughly 4.5 degrees.. gives great insight into how WMI actually achieves more power and protects the engine components with pump fuel..

As for the kits im still undecided on what kits are the best.. maybe some other people can offer some input?.. the aquamist ones are pretty pricey and dont flow as much as some of the others..

pretty interested in the Snow Performance kit, they have these new 220psi pumps now, a descent controller than can control the amount it delivers from inputs like boost.. and it has a safe injection system that can send a 12V trigger if the flow drops below a set amount to your ecu to trigger another map or a rich and retard setting.. and can also setup a solenoid to drop your boost.. so sounds safe enough providing the safe injection doesnt break

Has anyone had any experience with these kits on a car that has already max'd out its turbo exhaust wise.. and made any more power??

Got a bit carried away there.. sorry guys..

Jarrod

[jarrod83]

50:50 mix i have determined to be a pretty good mix... the methanol has a much lower temperature for its evaporation point.. so evaporates alot quicker than water but has a lower latent heat of evaporation.. while water generally makes it to the engine.. where with its much higher latent heat of evaporation can significant cool down the engine in comparison to what fuel can do by running the car rich..

water Latent heat of Vaporization 2259 KJ/kg . K

methanol latent heat of vaporization 1099 KJ/Kg . K

fuel Latent heat of vaporisation approximately.. 586-628 KJ/kg . K

also by having more than 2 liquids.. being sprayed into the intake.. you have a mixture of air, water and methanol.. because of Daltons partial pressure law, youll have more liquid evaporating because each gas behavior is directly related to it partial pressure.. so by having 2 liquids being injected, they have lower partial pressures.. and the temperature at which they evaporate is lower.. if you can even improve this by adding a 3rd liquid like acetone etc..

also water is much better knock suppressant than methanol.. i have actually read on a few sites that the methanol can be more prone to detonation with the pump gas due to higher combustion pressures.. which from the picture i posted.. you can see with 50:50 WMI, the peak combustion pressure is significantly less..

As for where you can get methanol i did a search for something like western australia racing fuels.. and found a supplier than does 200l barrels for 260 and 20litres for something like 50$.. you can also get lower mixes of water methanol from those blue car window sprays aslong as the antifreeze used if methanol and they dont have any other additives..

havent had much luck finding any kits locally.. i gave riceracing a email but havent had a response..

The amount you would need would depend on the amount your spraying in... im planning 2x375cc nozzles at around 220psi, which should flow something around the 900ml/min mark.. so as you can imagine it might not last that long.. but i have heard other ppl using the single nozzles n making it last about a tank on the street.. could always just get the 2.5gallon tank..

I quite like the AIS black 3 gallon tank.. but i havent been as impressed with the rest of their stuff..and they have no safe injection that i can find, was thinking might just buy a tank locally..

Jarrod

[R31Nismoid]

I take it that you wouldn't need to worry about meth levels getting low on track days as it only uses small amounts? Any idea on how often you need to fill?

Quite the opposite IMO.

3-4 flying laps around a circuit or even more potentially in a 15min-20min sprint session as an example... Depending on how much you are injecting etc... It could be substancial amounts.

You'd need to do some very good calculations around it all otherwise suddenly running out could spell a rather unsavoury outcome.

[TiTAN]

50:50 mix i have determined to be a pretty good mix... the methanol has a much lower temperature for its evaporation point.. so evaporates alot quicker than water but has a lower latent heat of evaporation.. while water generally makes it to the engine.. where with its much higher latent heat of evaporation can significant cool down the engine in comparison to what fuel can do by running the car rich..

water Latent heat of Vaporization 2259 KJ/kg . K

methanol latent heat of vaporization 1099 KJ/Kg . K

fuel Latent heat of vaporisation approximately.. 586-628 KJ/kg . K

also by having more than 2 liquids.. being sprayed into the intake.. you have a mixture of air, water and methanol.. because of Daltons partial pressure law, youll have more liquid evaporating because each gas behavior is directly related to it partial pressure.. so by having 2 liquids being injected, they have lower partial pressures.. and the temperature at which they evaporate is lower.. if you can even improve this by adding a 3rd liquid like acetone etc..

also water is much better knock suppressant than methanol.. i have actually read on a few sites that the methanol can be more prone to detonation with the pump gas due to higher combustion pressures.. which from the picture i posted.. you can see with 50:50 WMI, the peak combustion pressure is significantly less..

As for where you can get methanol i did a search for something like western australia racing fuels.. and found a supplier than does 200l barrels for 260 and 20litres for something like 50$.. you can also get lower mixes of water methanol from those blue car window sprays aslong as the antifreeze used if methanol and they dont have any other additives..

havent had much luck finding any kits locally.. i gave riceracing a email but havent had a response..

The amount you would need would depend on the amount your spraying in... im planning 2x375cc nozzles at around 220psi, which should flow something around the 900ml/min mark.. so as you can imagine it might not last that long.. but i have heard other ppl using the single nozzles n making it last about a tank on the street.. could always just get the 2.5gallon tank..

I quite like the AIS black 3 gallon tank.. but i havent been as impressed with the rest of their stuff..and they have no safe injection that i can find, was thinking might just buy a tank locally..

Jarrod

Rocket industries resell the snow performance kits, there are other brands available here also.

50:50 is considered a flammable mix, more water than meth should technically make it an inflammable liquid under normal conditions which I would rather have as my tank sits in the boot.

I have a snow performance MAP controlled kit and their 2.5 Gallon tank, for street use that tank lasts more than 6 months, however for race use I am with R31Nismoid, I wouldn't be recommending the smaller tanks for that purpose without some sort of safeguard in place. You only get a few minutes of full throttle full boost driving before its all gone. If your ECU supports switching between ignition and fuel maps you can run two maps, one tuned without the WMI and one tuned with it, then use a fluid level switch to switch the pump off and the maps over when the fluid runs low. The same principal can be used to switch a boost control solenoid off to lower the boost if you don't have the other features.

Just because they don't sell you a fancy box to do these things doesn't mean you can't do them with the other kits and $5 worth of parts from jaycar

[mattis96]

Hey mate i dont know where your located but i get mine from here, took me a while to find a place that wouldnt sell it in 200l drums as i only needed 20l

http://www.rcfuelsupplies.com.au/index.php...mp;review=write

[r33_racer]

We used WI years ago on the race car and it helped us get 360 or 370 odd rwkws with a gt30r. We picked up about 40kw's. It was just the snow performance kit with the maf controller and it worked very well.

If you are doing race duties, just fabricate up your own tank to hold as much as you like. I made one that held about 10litres in the boot. I believe we just topped it up when we topped the fuel up, I think the usage was around 2-3 litres per session.

Easiest way would be to just buy the plastic fuel tanks like the ones in that AIS kit, but say a 40L cell and that would last for ages. Put a fuel level in it and its sorted, or as Titan said a low level indicator.

[sav man]

Dad never ran out during Targa, but as a safty measure, we hooked the low leval light to a switched input on the Haltech to switch to a more conservative tune.

[jarrod83]

What sort of nozzle sizes are you's running? 360-370rwkw from a gt30r is a fair effort.. you sure you dont mean a gt35r?

So no one runs the safe injection?? im probably a little bit on the paranoid side of things, i know the systems are generally very reliable.. but after a good read of the snow performance and aquamist forums there has been quite a few ppl that have had clogged nozzles, snapped lines and nozzles popping out (depending on your setup).. which it also detects for overflow too, me an extra 159USD for some added safety is pretty cheap compared to what my engine costs, wouldnt mind getting some opinions though if its a pile of junk or actually works.

Jarrod

[XRATED]

I see it as a bandaid and just another thing to go wrong...

If your looking for a drop in intake temps or keeping your stock cooler from heat soaking, just run a simple spray of water over the front of the cooler while your on the track. Activate it on boost (10psi pressure switch).

If you run out of water or the nozle gets blocked, your not going to burn up your engine.

J.

[r33_racer]

I dont remember the injector size exactly sorry, but it was one rated for about 500-600hp whatever that equates to in cc/min. It was a while ago that we played with that. Yes it was a gt30r and it shocked alot of people what was achieved with it. It let us get gt35r power from the smaller brother.

Ive been considering WI for the supercharger setup if I cant get what im hoping for out of it. 1 injector into the intake of the charger and then one before the TB. If i was to do a turbo setup again with WI I would do the samething. But I would run a higher mix of methanol, probably 60/40 or maybe 70/30. It would work its best at the turbo intake, interms of dissipating heat from during the compression stage.

As Justin said, it is another thing that can go wrong, but in saying that we never had an issue with our system. Technology these days is pretty good and has overcome many of the problems they had with them 20-30 years ago. High pressure, more reliable pumps and better injector designs with prefilters and whatnot, plus the safety devices incase of blockage/lack of flow which when setup properly should yield great results without any problems.

[WARLORD]

What sort of nozzle sizes are you's running? 360-370rwkw from a gt30r is a fair effort.. you sure you dont mean a gt35r?

So no one runs the safe injection?? im probably a little bit on the paranoid side of things, i know the systems are generally very reliable.. but after a good read of the snow performance and aquamist forums there has been quite a few ppl that have had clogged nozzles, snapped lines and nozzles popping out (depending on your setup).. which it also detects for overflow too, me an extra 159USD for some added safety is pretty cheap compared to what my engine costs, wouldnt mind getting some opinions though if its a pile of junk or actually works.

Jarrod

size 10 or 12 depending on the delivery system

[jarrod83]

thats an awesome result Michael, might be some hope for my gt35 0.82 to hit the 500hp mark after all.. im running some descent compression as well so my main concern has been detonation and the exhaust being able to flow enough ( they look tiny)

Yeh i was reading a really long thread on aqua-mist about preturbo injection, had an awesome 30 page theory build up.. but a real lack of results to back it up at the end. Wouldnt mind giving it a go but i thought on the gt35r, that the turbine might be more on the restrictive side of things than the compressor, as it has a tiny exhaust wheel. Only problem with sticking it pre-turbo is your inter cooler loses some effeciency, not that it does much after a few squirts and everything is heat soaked

Yeh i have been reluctant to consider it, but my car seems to be a little on the knock happy side of things, figured i could buy it and test out how good the safe injection is at triggering low flow on a already safe map and go from there.

Jarrod