Jump to content
SAU Community

Recommended Posts

If he never pushed the car, why did he want more power?

well he didnt drive it enough for him to push it often and he is a sensible driver so didnt do it on the roads...i had to force him to go with me on the fwy and after plenty of times he only went once....he loves his cars and loves working on them and doing mods to them....therefore mods for more power....

pull the motor down and see what caused it first. could have been oil starvation or anything.

also they said it was pinging with the fuel that was in there... how long had your mate been driving it with the new mods before he took the car to them? sure he drove like a grandma when he was trying to drain the fuel, but what about before he went to the tuner? he's just put his car back together with all those new parts, i bet he would have given it a bit of a belting when he took it out for its first drive... while it would have been knocking

when he placed the new parts to together i was with him and he didnt belt it ...his revs didnt go above 3k or so...just so all the parts wear in....i remeber he booted it twice i think to make sure the new parts could handle high revs on the dyno....he did drive it (normal driving) around for a fair while...well enough for the parts to wear in before he gave it to the tuner....the tuner was informed about the mods at the start...

2-3 seconds of detonation can break an engine easy. Pick your failure. Broken ring lands, or spun bearings as a result of the rod bearings taking a hammering.

Also, by "its a 100k old engine thats been modded and leaned on", White R32 meant an engine thats been tuned to within an inch of its life. Not an engine that has been tuned with a lean air/fuel ratio.

Most, if not all tuners tuning random cars off the street will always tune to the safe side of things. This means a little richer than makes optimal power and a little less ignition advance in order to keep it safe.

Only when you show up at a workshop with a bucket of money and request a massive horsepower goal will a tuner go for broke on a tune. And in some of those situations a potential engine failure during tuning/R&D is factored into the quotation.

As for the evo, only a forensic examination will tell the story.

what is my mate looking for? just to make sure the tuner is not covering his mistakes...if he did any...should my mate be with him when he is pulling the motor apart or the cause of the engine to blow cant be hidden no matter whos fault is it...

Not sure about you guys, but every dyno (three) that I've taken my car to, the tuner has given me an exclusion of liability form to sign...

ya i thought so...but he didnt sign any sort of paper work like that...i was pretty sure i did that too when i got my car tuned....

THANKS GUYS for your support and advices....me and my mate are fairly new to this kind of industry so not sure what the rules and regulations are...more info the better is for him to know whats the best option he got right now....

  • Replies 65
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

As sad as it is it is rarely a tuner fault, i dont know this car or situation but by the sounds of it and the mods a tune should not realy kill it... i mean it would have to be pinking BADLY for a long time to blow up or run lean for A LONG time to blow up. Yet a slight oil starvation at some point in time could have burnt bearings etc and it was just its time..

i dont know, but to be honest unless you heard it on the dyno detonating its head off (or a dead wideband sensor) it could be anything.

NO you dont know this car...your shop was considered but for my mate it was easier with the tuner he choose...so he went there instead... :ph34r: Advice from a tuner is highly appriceated here....

Like you said i had the same opinion.....according to the tuner the oil temp reached just above 120 degrees while tuning the car...then he switched the car off...when he started again it was making metal grinding noise.....WIERD...if i was a tuner i wouldn be letting the oil to reach that high temp...would that be monitored closely? i would have been switching the car off when it got close to 110...the car wasnt pinking badly....it was running fairly smoothly after my mate played with the accel cable like mentioned in the first post....

with the mods,the tuner could get the car to pull above 190awkw....and line on the dyno went up and flattened out...ill get my mate to give a the dyno sheet so i can scan and show you how the first tune looked like so you minght be able to tell where the fault was....

Hi VSPECT,

I think regardless of the issue, i tend to agree with most that it would be very difficult in getting the workshop to claim responsibility. (unless there was a clear case of neglect)

Id hate to be a tuner as generally they have a pretty hard job. (This is definately one of those cases).

One thing which might come back to bite your friend is the fact that he installed the parts himself. (I assume he is not a qualified machanic).

Also a bigger turbo, cams and fuel pump were installed without upgrading injectors or ecu which could have also caused problems.

Its never nice when a engine goes but hope your mate gets it back up and running.

Bottom line of it all: performance modifications in the automotive industry = at your own risk / no warranty.

It sucks when this happens, but that's cars for you. Cars are designed with factory specifications in mind...sure you can take them past that, but that doesn't mean they were designed for it.

thanks mate...but he did get the apexi pfc and the tuner was tuning with that ecu...injectors was in the initial plan but dont remember why he didnt do it...anyhow he just told the tuner to tune the car so it runs nicely and gets a bit more power...

yes he is not a qualified mechanic but his work on cars is really good....he does do a great job...but yes i did also mention to him that it could be that he worked on the car himself...i can ensure he didn pull shortcuts in the installations and bought the required tools to do the installations properly...he didnt get the parts put in by the mechanic coz he wanted to do it himself as thats what he likes to do....

NO you dont know this car...your shop was considered but for my mate it was easier with the tuner he choose...so he went there instead... :down: Advice from a tuner is highly appriceated here....

Like you said i had the same opinion.....according to the tuner the oil temp reached just above 120 degrees while tuning the car...then he switched the car off...when he started again it was making metal grinding noise.....WIERD...if i was a tuner i wouldn be letting the oil to reach that high temp...would that be monitored closely? i would have been switching the car off when it got close to 110...the car wasnt pinking badly....it was running fairly smoothly after my mate played with the accel cable like mentioned in the first post....

with the mods,the tuner could get the car to pull above 190awkw....and line on the dyno went up and flattened out...ill get my mate to give a the dyno sheet so i can scan and show you how the first tune looked like so you minght be able to tell where the fault was....

the ecu tune file and tear down of the engine is the only thing that will tell you what went wrong.

On another note i have a good customer with a engine i built for him 8k worth of SR, i get a call from him @ a comp in Tassie saying its running on 3 and its f**ked..... says its pinging so bad (a so called expert @ he track diagnosed it) it closed a plug gap... i explained thats impossible and only something hitting a plug can do that (expert @ track in background can be heard saying crap tune etc etc)... i told him to swap out the plug and see how it runs...

i then freak out for 3 days wondering how and why only to find out his new throttle body he installed himself had dropped a butterfly screw... and the engine subsequently ate it... this could have been a classic case of blame tuner first then find facts later :ph34r:

Lucky this customer did not get all high and mighty when it did happen and listened to reason and subsequently found the issue himself a few days later, often it is hard to find the reason for failure without a thorough going over of the car.

If it is down in comp and breathing then yes it could be pinking or lean (tune related), if it spun a bearing chances are its an unrelated engine failure.

.....according to the tuner the oil temp reached just above 120 degrees while tuning the car...then he switched the car off...when he started again it was making metal grinding noise.....WIERD...if i was a tuner i wouldn be letting the oil to reach that high temp...would that be monitored closely? i would have been switching the car off when it got close to 110...the car wasnt pinking badly....it was running fairly smoothly after my mate played with the accel cable like mentioned in the first post....

120 degrees is not ideal but provided the oil was of decent quality it should not be THE contributing cause, track cars often see 120 degrees... not ideal but not the instant engine killer either.

A customers oil cooler thermostat stick closed and the oil temp hovered around 150c for an enduro event (300v 15w-50) and on tear down (2 years later) there was minimal evidence of abnormal wear :ph34r:

he was using castrol 5w 60....that oil is meant to be one of the best....well thats what i use on my car...not to start the which oil is better convo...just wanted to put it out there if that might be of help...well according to what the tuner sounded like he was kinda blaming the oil cooler and when the oil got hot and when he started it again, he found the enigne to be blown...anyhow....ill talk to my mate and get the tuner to pull the engine apart and ill post pix on to see what he says about it and to what you guys think about it...

he was using castrol 5w 60....that oil is meant to be one of the best....well thats what i use on my car...not to start the which oil is better convo...just wanted to put it out there if that might be of help...well according to what the tuner sounded like he was kinda blaming the oil cooler and when the oil got hot and when he started it again, he found the enigne to be blown...anyhow....ill talk to my mate and get the tuner to pull the engine apart and ill post pix on to see what he says about it and to what you guys think about it...

did the owner fit up the oil cooler? was it a new addition?

no...think it came with the car..why dont they usually have them?

no i have had a few customers install them @ home and then come in for a tune or whatever and ive found the lines crossed so it had pressure but no flow.... this will kill an engine quick as hell.

sorry man but i cant think of anything else off the top of my head.

Hi guys, My mate has an Evo 7 with 100k on the clock. When bought the car months ago, the compression test gave great results showing the engine is healthy.

Before giving it to the tuner, my mate installed these:-

G20 turbo

272 cams

fuel pump

When he took it to the tuner, the car was running perfectly but since he wanted to put in a Power FC, he went to a tuner to tune the car with standard injectors.

When he returned to the workshop at the end of the day to pick his car up, they said it was pining (not sure how to spell it)...so they asked him to come back and run the petrol down and come with a fresh tank of fuel....

During when he was running the fuel down, the car was not idling properly and at the lights it nearly stalls and on start ups it stalled after approx 30 secs later.... but he loosened the accelerator cable and that fixed all the problems he felt his car was having after the first tune....

When he gave the car the second time, he left the car at the tuner in a perfect condition and was not making any sort of noise and was running healthy....But unfortunately he walked into the workshop later that day to find his engine was blown while they were tuning the car...(bearings, rods, crank all gone and prob other parts of the engine too due to them damaged)

Now the question is that where does my mate stand and how should he go to pursue the matter....should the tuner fix the engine at no cost? or is he responsible for the damage....Noting he didn't sign any paper work saying he will be responsible for any damage like we do on the dyno days....

If you can prove the dyno operator was negligent then you should be able to claim some compensation, but you can only do that by proving he leaned the engine out too much or too far advanced, but how do you do that?

I had a gearbox blown (auto) with a negligent mechanic which cost $1,400 to rectify. I think a lot of mechanics try to rectify problems on cars on the dyno where they should be using their heads, not readouts.

Maybe they just put too much power through a mature bottom end??

To be honest and speaking from personal experience.

Give up and just move on with the car.

My experience; My dad reversed my car into a gate and shatterd my rear window. The panel beater in Dandenong had to fix it. dropped the car off to him, everything fine. no funny noises nothing, the car was serviced about two weeks prior.

Stupidly enough he tells me I can only pick up the car at 5pm(closing time) on a friday. (6days to repair a window?)

pick up the car, they left rapidly before me, and as I drive off i noticed my oil light came up and my turbo was blown.

I find a red P-plate in the car and see markings on the window showing where it was stuck. I have never been on my Red p's in this car.

I had my lawyer review the case, even with the pictures of an extra 130k's on the clock(i took pictures previous to giving them the car)

The lawyers, and three other mechanics said with a car its extremely hard for them to be proven guilty of"thrashing" or Neglect base on the previous modifications that are already in the car. as someone else said. Manafacturers make the car for a certain purpose/state/function. when you modify something, without an engineers certificate to say the mod is installed correctly, "you will have no leg to stand on."

i know having a blown turbo is different to a blown engine, but the car that i have, it cost me all up around $2500 to replace the turbo anyway. i was lucky to get away with not having to pay lawyer fee's as they are all family lawyers.

i wouldnt waste the time, effort, money, to persue something that you only have a 30% chance of winning. best bet is to contact consumer affairs at most. they'll tell you what they think of the matter. wont do much though.

oh its safe to say that I'm an Ombudsman so i do kinda deal with this conflict of interest crap. modified cars/law dont work well with eachother.

hope I helped.

Aaron

To be honest and speaking from personal experience.

Give up and just move on with the car.

My experience; My dad reversed my car into a gate and shatterd my rear window. The panel beater in Dandenong had to fix it. dropped the car off to him, everything fine. no funny noises nothing, the car was serviced about two weeks prior.

Stupidly enough he tells me I can only pick up the car at 5pm(closing time) on a friday. (6days to repair a window?)

pick up the car, they left rapidly before me, and as I drive off i noticed my oil light came up and my turbo was blown.

I find a red P-plate in the car and see markings on the window showing where it was stuck. I have never been on my Red p's in this car.

I had my lawyer review the case, even with the pictures of an extra 130k's on the clock(i took pictures previous to giving them the car)

The lawyers, and three other mechanics said with a car its extremely hard for them to be proven guilty of"thrashing" or Neglect base on the previous modifications that are already in the car. as someone else said. Manafacturers make the car for a certain purpose/state/function. when you modify something, without an engineers certificate to say the mod is installed correctly, "you will have no leg to stand on."

i know having a blown turbo is different to a blown engine, but the car that i have, it cost me all up around $2500 to replace the turbo anyway. i was lucky to get away with not having to pay lawyer fee's as they are all family lawyers.

i wouldnt waste the time, effort, money, to persue something that you only have a 30% chance of winning. best bet is to contact consumer affairs at most. they'll tell you what they think of the matter. wont do much though.

oh its safe to say that I'm an Ombudsman so i do kinda deal with this conflict of interest crap. modified cars/law dont work well with eachother.

hope I helped.

Aaron

^^^ fark i would have lost my shit.....

the ecu tune file and tear down of the engine is the only thing that will tell you what went wrong.

+1

IMO you should attempt to establish the cause of the failure, otherwise you might blow up the next motor...

First do the simple/cheap things as Trent mentioned - check the tune file is sensible, check the oil cooler is not plumbed backwards etc. Then if you dont find anything you could pay to have the engine inspected. Obviously you'll need to find someone with the correct expertise and qualifications, and who will write a report that meets the requirements to be used as evidence in court.

If the engine shows signs of damage caused by the tune you can then consider taking action against the tuner. Or perhaps you may find your mate stuffed the cam install....

ya think he is going back tommorrow and will suss it out....he already srouced another engine and the tuner might be helping him with pricing...reading the thread my mate gave up on persuing the matter against the tuner but will persue the reason for the blow up...will keep you guys updated...

thanks all for you responses....really appreciate it...

ever stop too think it may have been something your mate did when he build the motor did he check for bearing crush to check the clearances did he check piston to bore measurement did he check ring gaps does he own his own micrometers and verniers has his torque wrench ever been checked for accuracy .

there is lot more to building a engine than putting the parts in .

thats what you pay a engine builder for your paying for there knowledge and experience as well as there time

cheers dean

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



  • Similar Content

  • Latest Posts

    • From there, it is really just test and assemble. Plug the adapter cables from the unit into the back of the screen, then the other side to the car harness. Don't forget all the other plugs too! Run the cables behind the unit and screw it back into place (4 screws) and you should now have 3 cables to run from the top screen to the android unit. I ran them along the DS of the other AV units in the gap between their backets and the console, and used some corrugated tubing on the sharp edges of the bracket so the wires were safe. Plug the centre console and lower screen in temporarily and turn the car to ACC, the AV should fire up as normal. Hold the back button for 3 sec and Android should appear on the top screen. You need to set the input to Aux for audio (more on that later). I put the unit under the AC duct in the centre console, with the wifi antenna on top of the AC duct near the shifter, the bluetooth antenna on the AC duct under the centre console The GPS unit on top of the DS to AC duct; they all seem to work OK there are are out of the way. Neat cable routing is a pain. For the drive recorder I mounted it near the rear view mirror and run the cable in the headlining, across the a pillar and then down the inside of the a pillar seal to the DS lower dash. From there it goes across and to one USB input for the unit. The second USB input is attached to the ECUtec OBD dongle and the 3rd goes to the USB bulkhead connected I added in the centre console. This is how the centre console looks "tidied" up Note I didn't install the provided speaker, didn't use the 2.5mm IPod in line or the piggyback loom for the Ipod or change any DIP switches; they seem to only be required if you need to use the Ipod input rather than the AUX input. That's it, install done, I'll follow up with a separate post on how the unit works, but in summary it retains all factory functions and inputs (so I still use my phone to the car for calls), reverse still works like factory etc.
    • Place the new daughterboard in the case and mount it using the 3 small black rivets provided, and reconnect the 3 factory ribbon cables to the new board Then, use the 3 piggyback cables from the daughterboard into the factory board on top (there are stand offs in the case to keep them apart. and remember to reconnect the antenna and rear cover fan wires. 1 screw to hold the motherboard in place. Before closing the case, make a hole in the sticker covering a hole in the case and run the cable for the android unit into the plug there. The video forgot this step, so did I, so will you probably. Then redo the 4 screws on back, 2 each top and bottom, 3 each side and put the 2 brackets back on.....all ready to go and not that tricky really.      
    • Onto the android unit. You need to remove the top screen because there is a daughterboard to put inside the case. Each side vent pops out from clips; start at the bottom and carefully remove upwards (use a trim remover tool to avoid breaking anything). Then the lower screen and controls come out, 4 screws, a couple of clips (including 3 flimsy ones at the top) and 3 plugs on the rear. Then the upper screen, 4 screws and a bunch of plugs and she is out. From there, remove the mounting brackets (2 screws each), 4 screws on the rear, 2 screws top and bottom and 3 screws holding in the small plates on each side. When you remove the back cover (tight fit), watch out for the power cable for the fan, I removed it so I could put the back aside. The mainboard is held in by 1 screw in the middle, 1 aerial at the top and 3 ribbon cables. If you've ever done any laptop stuff the ribbon cables are OK to work with, just pop up the retainer and they slide out. If you are not familiar just grab a 12 year old from an iphone factory, they will know how it works The case should now look like this:
    • Switching the console was tricky. First there were 6 screws to remove, and also the little adapter loom and its screws had to come out. Also don't forget to remove the 2 screws holding the central locking receiver. Then there are 4 clips on either side....these were very tight in this case and needed careful persuading with a long flat screw driver....some force required but not enough to break them...this was probably the fiddliest part of the whole job. In my case I needed both the wiring loom and the central locking receiver module to swap across to the new one. That was it for the console, so "assembly is the reverse of disassembly"
    • But first....while I was there, I also swapped across the centre console box for the other style where the AV inputs don't intrude into the (very limited !) space.  Part# was 96926-4GA0A, 284H3-4GA0B, 284H3-4GA0A. (I've already swapped the top 12v socket for a USB bulkhead in this pic, it fit the hole without modification:) Comparison of the 2: Basically to do the console you need to remove the DS and PS side console trim (they slide up and back, held in by clips only) Then remove the back half of the console top trim with the cupholders, pops up, all clips again but be careful at the front as it is pretty flimsy. Then slide the shifter boot down, remove the spring clip, loose it forever somewhere in the car the pull the shift knob off. Remove the tiny plastic piece on DS near "P" and use something thin and long (most screwdrivers won't fit) to push down the interlock and put the shifter down in D for space. There is one screw at the front, then the shifter surround and ashtray lift up. There are 3 or 4 plugs underneath and it is off. Next is the rear cover of the centre console; you need to open the console lid, pop off the trim covering the lid hinge and undo the 2rd screw from the driver's side (the rest all need to come out later so you can do them all now and remove the lid) Then the rear cover unclips (6 clips), start at the top with a trim tool pulling backwards. Once it is off there are 2 screws facing rearwards to remove (need a short phillips for these) and you are done with the rear of the console. There are 4 plugs at the A/V box to unclip Then there are 2 screws at the front of the console, and 2 clips (pull up and back) and the console will come out.
×
×
  • Create New...