Sau Roll Cage Thread General Discussions

[Bsa]

It really depends on what the car is used for

[r31slpr]

I'm aware if I want to compete in motorsport events the cage will have to comply with their regulations.

But my main question is if i put the car on its roof, will a decent bolt in hold up?

[ISL33P]

Considering you mentioned a rollover from the start, I would not recommend a full bolt in cage. Luckily rollovers arent all that common, I would be looking at things like front, rear and side impact as a priority. These kinds of impact are more common.

A rear half, main hoop and back half would be a minimum if you intend on rolling over lol

[ISL33P]

Ps regardless of the type of use, I would never recommend a bolt in and that why they are not acceptable under CAMS and ANDRA, regardless of what any form of non-sanctioned motorsport may or may not allow

[Risking]

I never recommend bolt in cages for countless reasons. However they do have a place in the industry.

CAMS do allow the use of bolt in cages right up to a national level. The FiA do also depending on the type of vehicle construction.

There are many bussiness who have made a good profit from supplying bolt in cage kits. They clamp together using fence post like connectors and are absolute rubbish.

It's a shame they have sold so many as they really are a poor thing but they do meet the minimum requirements.

A better bolt in cage has properly welded sections and the bases are the only parts that a bolted together. When asked to do a bolt in that's the only way I'll do them.

I can honestly say I've never done a "fence post" bolt in cage and never will.

A bolted in cage that bolts through the floor pan is a waste of time in any impact. In a roll over you need to comprehend how the chassis is constructed. The floor pan is spot welded to the sill panels. The entire weight if the roll over is going to those spot welds.

Your going to loose your neck....

The best way to do a bolt in cage is to weld plates to the seat pan that have captive nuts on the underside.

The front weld plates shaped like an L to the sill panels and the floor pan again with captive nuts.

The rear do the same either the to wheel arch (poor location) or to the strut tower with the same captive nuts.

Those locations provide decent mounting points and your not relying on the floor pan

In a simple vertical roll over it's been proven that this method is as reliable as a welded in cage. In a more 3 dimension repeat roll it's apparent

that when lateral load is placed on the mounts the bolts will break when A weld will remain

A properly done bolt in cage will cost more than a weld in cage,(due to labour) a poorly done "cheap" bolt in cage will be cheaper.

Another thing I had asked today was in regards to intrusions.

There is places saying the U bar intrusions are not okay with CAMS. That's utter rubbish and shouldn't be listened too.

If anyone with the internet can open the cams online manual of Motorsport then they could also clearly see that cams prefer the U bar intrusion with opposing gussets over the X style bars.

X bars take an hour per side and are dead easy.

U bars can take 4 hours per side Inc gussets and can be a pain in the arse to do well.

Chances are those out there telling people this don't have the skill or the knowledge to do the U bars properly......

[r31slpr]

Cheers for the reply's. I'm not against getting a proper weld in cage and I'm not even sure if i'll be doing any events. I was thinking bolt in for ease of removal as its still a streeter for now.

Just curious do you happen to know why cams and andra don't approve bolt ins? I'm guessing the bolts are a weak point

Edit: You just answered my question, thanks

Edited May 17, 2012 by r31slpr

[Risking]

See my post above.

I've never been asked to do a bolt in andra cage but according to the current manual they allow bolt in cages to a certain ET range

[r31slpr]

I'd already typed that reply before i saw yours haha it just took me 10 minutes to post it.

Thanks again, your reply was exactly what i was looking for.

[UWISSH!]

hmm some good info above from Risking,

Im now considering making my half cage a weld in one but will still give it some more time before i decide 100% what i want to do.

Do events like power cruise and those sorts of things allow bolt in cages???

i dont believe i will roll my car, im looking at a cage for some extra rigidity.

Oh and Risking i spoke with Stuart from Performance Metals Australia today and have ordered myself some pipes, its on back order though till the middle of next month. He was very helpfull.

So yeh ill be sure to post up some pics and probably a shit load more questions once the material comes in and i decide on the direction i want to go

[ISL33P]

Apologies, as Brad mentioned they do allow them but I have never made a bolt in cage, well not a bolt in main hoop and back stays.

[ISL33P]

Considering there are now requirements for a cage at powercruise I doubt they could dictate what type of cage can or can't be used

[UWISSH!]

for weld in cages, how do you weld the bars that are up near the roof? any special secrets to it?

also is mig welding for the cage good enough? i havnt done tig since second year tafe but am very good at mig welding.

only thing i have against weld in cages is that i would like to keep as much of the rear interior as possible but looking through Riskings gallery on r33's it doesnt realy look like you can keep much of it

[ISL33P]

Just drop the hoop and weld it but if you want a bolt in you won't have to worry about. Especially if you want to keep the back seat make a bolt in and you only touch the interior if you need the cage in.

The weld is only as good as the person welding it, so if you are comfortable and competent with mig, stick to it, it is completely acceptable as per the rules.

I reckon there are most crappy tig welds then mig welds out there

[ISL33P]

Just drop the hoop and weld it but if you want a bolt in you won't have to worry about. Especially if you want to keep the back seat make a bolt in and you only touch the interior if you need the cage in.

The weld is only as good as the person welding it, so if you are comfortable and competent with mig, stick to it, it is completely acceptable as per the rules.

I reckon there are most crappy tig welds then mig welds out there

[UWISSH!]

ok so you basically just tack up everything on the mounts you make in the corners of the rear seats then just cut the tacks drop it down and weld whats needed then put it back on the mounts and do the final welding???

also another thing ive noticed, most main hoops ive seen have 2 bends per side near the top of the hoop.

Whats the reason behind this?

The template i made up has one main bend in per side and seems to follow very close to roof and b pillars, is this acceptable?

Also im more than happy to remove the back seat, its the other side pannels that im worried about like down in the corners of the rear seats where you have the mounting points for the main hoop

[ISL33P]

Spot on with the welding

The 2nd bend is usually to follow the bend in the middle of the door where the window starts.

You should be able to make a mounting feet in front of the factory rail which in under the rear seat. You would pull it is a little and put the hoop on the inside of it. I dont think there is no rule saying it has to be on the middle of the foot or plate, just states it's minimum surface area.

[UWISSH!]

ok so there is no rule saying that the main hoop has to have the 2 bends in it? my template i made looks like it will follow close to the roof and sides of the car with only the one bend if i keep most of the interior.

[Roy]

I suggest that anyone planning on welding their own cages do a few weld samples and send them off for destructive testing to make sure you are not going to skewer yourself on your scaffolding

[Risking]

Of all the cages I've seen and done I really can't vision a single bend hoop being remotely close to a good fit.

If I was you I'd give the car to a cage builder with a length if your material and get a hoop bent up properly.

The cages you see that I've done are built for race only vehicles.

I rarely do X breed cars that are street regoed, they are becoming more popular though.

The ones I have done Always have two bends and usually fit hard against the trim panels, just to optimize the space inside the car.

[Risking]

Not sure if anyone else on here has done one before but lotus cages are a right pain in the ass.

I did my 5th one today, they never get any easier with their stupid removable roof and fiberglass flexi coulings.

Managed to knock 90% of the cage over in 3/4 of a day.