Formula One 2014

[djr81]

Whether or not he was pushing any limit is irrelevant. It isn't good enough that a simple mistake (If it was even that - no one knows) ruins someones weekend/season/career/life/whatever the outcome is.

Should be straight forward marshals and forklifts out under double waved yellows is not good enough in the wet. Put the safety car out. Fixed. Which, sadly, is more than can be said for Bianchi at the moment.

[CEF33Y]

Oh boy. Ok, It did fail, because there was an incident.

Whoever decided it was a "low likelihood risk" got it wrong.

Just to clarify, there are hazards (a hazard can cause harm or adverse effects). And the "risk" is the chance or probability you'll be affected by the hazard.

The hazard in this instance was to send the tractor outside the barrier. The risk was the chance someone would hit it.

Given that most of the time drivers do not slow down enough for double waved yellows + worsening conditions + tractor in a perilous spot + marshals present + contact with said tractor could easily result in death, I personally would not be comfortable sending it out, knowing, what would (did) happen if a F1 car hit it.

You do raise some valid points though, motorsport is dangerous, but things can happen, caused by an incorrect (unsafe?) choices that make it un neccessarily dangerous. I believe this was one of those times.

Anyway, its obvious we both have different views on the subject, and thats ok.

In short.

Yes motorsport is dangerous

We dont need to make it more dangerous by sending large rigid, objects into the potential path of errant racecars.

[hrd-hr30]

Oh boy. Ok, It did fail, because there was an incident.

Whoever decided it was a "low likelihood risk" got it wrong.

No the driver who pushed to the limit at the one point there was a hazard got it wrong. He was warned of the danger by double waved yellows, lights in the cockpit and presumably radio, but took no heed. That was the failure in the risk management of this situation.

If the tractor deployment will take less than two minutes in total and drivers are warned of a significant danger at that point of the track by one or two previous flag points lights in your car and radio, there should be no excuse for losing control of your car at that point of the track.

[CEF33Y]

Ok, So if the driver gets it wrong (fairly high chance) and there is no tractor, hits wall, walks away with a sore thumb.

Gets it wrong with a tractor, loses his head.

The driver should not have to worry about running into things like tractors, or marshals.

Anyway, keen for Russia. F1 and Bathurst in the same weekend. Score!

[hrd-hr30]

It's not a fairly high chance of a driver getting it wrong. Even if there were no warnings the likelihood of a driver going off at that point in time and on that one particular part of the track are pretty low. With 3 seperate warnings, there should be no chance you'd get it wrong there unless you're taking an unacceptable risk yourself.

If you want no risk of running into a tractor or marshals, you'd have to deploy the SC, wait several laps for all the cars to bunch up behind it, after making pit-stops or whatever, then let the marshals and tractor out. Then let all the lapped cars go past which takes another few laps. The last SC took about 15 minutes, and that wasn't waiting for everyone to bunch up. Avg non finishers these days is about 5 cars per race. Say just 3 of them need recovering, that's about 45minutes of the race under SC.

Edited October 9, 2014 by hrd-hr30

[CEF33Y]

Ok, if there was ANY chance of a car coming off on that corner the tractor shouldn't have been deployed.

"Sorry MR and MRS Bianchi, we could of waited until the safety car had the field under control, but that would of taken an extra 15 mins, and like, annoyed the fans"

Seriously.

Anyway, it's been a good chat, but I've really got no more to say, except Forza Jules.

[hrd-hr30]

If you want no risk, you're looking at the wrong sport mate. The level of risk there was totally under the control of the driver himself. It's the Marshals I'm glad he didn't take out by ignoring the safety warnings.

[Roy]

Harry...that's BS. If courts step in to stop Sea World staff from engaging in dangerous practices with killer whales pissed off about being in captivity then FIA and stewards need to ensure a drivers workplacesis safe.

No need to re-write the rule book or ruin racing...but extra, sensible steps can always be taken to make things safer...including looking at driver conduct under flags. I am not even sure Bianchi is at fault...it was an accident and the flip side its not only about the driver. If Bianchi had hit and killed a marshall ( how easy would that have been) are we going to say it's dangerous for marshalls too so live with the risk?

I say nonsense... it can and imo should change.

[tweety bird]

Lotus will have Mercedes power next year.

[hrd-hr30]

Harry...that's BS. If courts step in to stop Sea World staff from engaging in dangerous practices with killer whales pissed off about being in captivity then FIA and stewards need to ensure a drivers workplacesis safe. No need to re-write the rule book or ruin racing...but extra, sensible steps can always be taken to make things safer...including looking at driver conduct under flags.

huh? that's exactly what I've been saying - the drivers' conduct under double yellows is the problem that needs to be fixed! And as I've already said, it's easy to fix - the frame work is already there. Make them run to the same deltas for that sector under yellows that they would otherwise have to if the SC were deployed. No riskier than deploying the SC which the totally risk averse are advocating, and it doesn't ruin the race, or make it likely that you'll run half the race under SC like the cotton wool brigade seem to want. You could even make it so they have a yellow flag speed limit button they have to engage in yellow sectors. Not hard to implement at all.

Edited October 9, 2014 by hrd-hr30

[djr81]

Harry...that's BS. If courts step in to stop Sea World staff from engaging in dangerous practices with killer whales pissed off about being in captivity then FIA and stewards need to ensure a drivers workplacesis safe. No need to re-write the rule book or ruin racing...but extra, sensible steps can always be taken to make things safer...including looking at driver conduct under flags. I am not even sure Bianchi is at fault...it was an accident and the flip side its not only about the driver. If Bianchi had hit and killed a marshall ( how easy would that have been) are we going to say it's dangerous for marshalls too so live with the risk? I say nonsense... it can and imo should change.

Well exactly Same as the cams briefings - a race track is now regarded as a workplace. It isn't the 1960s anymore where the prospect of avoiding killing yourself/someone else is regard as part of the challenge.

[hrd-hr30]

and just like CAMS race meets, you are also expected to understand and heed the flags. That's part of their responsibility at the "workplace". If a roofer ignores the safety requirement to hook his harness to the roof, falls and injures himself, is that a failing of WHS or the worker?

personal responsibility really is a foreign concept these days!

Edited October 10, 2014 by hrd-hr30

[Kinks]

There is a lot of knee jerk horse shit being discussed here.

1) Changing the start time is all well and good in hindsight but Bernie wouldn't do it because he loves TV ratings and money. Besides which, whatever conditions you are faced with in a race, you should be able to conduct the race without seriously injuring or killing somebody. That's the FIA's job. Start time is irrelevant.

2) Enforcing a safety car, or speed limits under double waved yellows, or whatever is just slapping a bandaid on it and saying "there I fixed it". Conditions change too much for a blanket rule to be OK. When the race started under the safety car many drivers were on full wets and Vettel was heard commenting that he aquaplaned doing 80km/h. Near the end of the race on worn tyres, the limit may have been even less than this. Most drivers at this stage were on inters. If your inters have worn out then you can probably still aquaplane doing less than 60km/h. Does the limit need to be 40? 20? Do we hit a pause button and everybody stops where they are on the track until the crashed car is recovered? This is a ridiculous line of discussion. The solution is to make sure that drivers obey double waved yellows and slow down substantially when they see them. The driver needs to be the judge of how much to slow down in order to guarantee they can stop if they need to. That's what double waved yellows means and these should be displayed significantly before the corner in question to give the driver time to decide on an appropriate speed. It sounds like this was done. Bianchi misjudged, unfortunately. He aquaplaned off the corner under double waved yellows so clearly his judgement was wrong.

3) Insisting on zero risk is retarded and is at odds with motorsport. If it wasn't a tiny bit dangerous it would not be fun. We should seek to minimise risk and look at what happened here but it was an unfortunate set of circumstances. A second or two either way and Bianchi would be dead, or he would have walked away unharmed.

Martin Brundle commented that when a car goes off in the wet it's sometimes the case that another car is going to go off in the same place. This was certainly true in this case. The tractor got out there very quickly. It had almost cleared the crashed car completely. However, Bianchi may not have been aware of the lack of grip in that section of the track as he crashed 2 minutes after Sutil. His lap time the last time around was 117 seconds, so he may have been coming through the section under double yellows for the first time. It is possible that leaving a crashed car untouched for a full lap gives the drivers enough time to evaluate the hazard and then recovery can proceed. But this is STILL not a zero risk proposition.

Ultimately it was just bloody bad luck. Double waved yellows means slow down and be prepared to stop. Bianchi obviously failed to heed this effectively, taking into account the state of his tyres and the track conditions. I'm not blaming him, but shouting to the FIA or whoever to "DO SOMETHING!!!!" is unrealistic. They did everything right. The only safer way is not to have a motor race.

All the postulating won't undo what has happened. Sometimes despite best efforts a set of circumstances crop up and you're in for a bad time. Bianchi has paid a heavy price.. and I hope he recovers although it does not look likely.

Agree with hrd-hr30 here.. personal responsibility is a foreign concept. Bianchi went into a corner with double waved yellows too fast, lost control and has paid the price. It is terrible, but it is what it is.

[Roy]

huh? that's exactly what I've been saying - the drivers' conduct under double yellows is the problem that needs to be fixed! And as I've already said, it's easy to fix - the frame work is already there. Make them run to the same deltas for that sector under yellows that they would otherwise have to if the SC were deployed. No riskier than deploying the SC which the totally risk averse are advocating, and it doesn't ruin the race, or make it likely that you'll run half the race under SC like the cotton wool brigade seem to want. You could even make it so they have a yellow flag speed limit button they have to engage in yellow sectors. Not hard to implement at all.

Oh...so we are agreeing. Sheesh

"In his report Whiting has indicated that some but not all drivers slowed for the yellow flag zone caused by Adrian Sutil’s crashed Sauber in Suzuka and by varying amounts"

Need to take it out of their hands and understand your roofing analogy but if they are going to fall on another worker or a pedestrian then you need to do something like put a better engineering control in place

I understand the whole personal responsibility thing but you are rewarding risk taking in sport and well the animal will take risks which in circumstances IMO need to have better controls to limit risks at that point in time

[GTR-N1]

I still can't get my head around the fact that two cars having come off at the same spot might indicate a patch of settled water and poor drainage?

Probably being investigated anyway...

[tweety bird]

Marussia are only running one car this weekend out of respect for jules.

[tweety bird]

Yellow flag speed limits might be coming soon.

http://m.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116267/fia-plans-yellow-flag-speed-limits

[tweety bird]

Details on the lead up to the accident.

http://m.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116269/details-of-bianchi-crash-revealed

[GTR-N1]

Thanks for ^^ that.

I read and reread the quote, "...Bianchi hit the same bit of water..."

No mention of terms 'oil' or 'drainage' if at all which will come up at the investigation of course.

I wonder for Jules' sake as to whether stem cells can assist for that condition he has.

[sh@un]

Oh Bottas, youuuuu fuucked up; Or was it because you drove so hard in the first two sectors that the rear tyres weren't there at the end?