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Lawyer required!

Moanie

By Moanie,
in New South Wales

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Moanie Grand Master

Moanie

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my mate has gone 4 times to epa and cant pass,  i got defected for everything you can think about, but never court.

Well... it sounds to me like your mate has only offended ONCE... he is just taking awhile to clear his first round of defects. And sounds like you've only been done once too. All I am saying is that I got defected TWICE (thw two offences were a year apart) by the RTA/EPA... for EXACTLY the same thing... and the second time the EPA took me to court... that is all!

Supra - Lawyer fees were about the same... so all up i think i was let off VERY lightly! :cheers:

Moanie Grand Master

Moanie

Posted
  • Author
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I used to have a trust sr on the car... VERY loud... heheh... i loved it!! it sounded so damn tough!!!

yeah... i think i just had some bad luck... first one was on a sunday night - wetherill park... pulled over by an undercover cop car... had to follow them to the rta/epz set up... second time was early sunday morning... was at harrys for a pie... they had an 'rbt' setup with the rta/epa setup behind... ahh well!! i'm just glad its all over! :rofl:

Sydneykid Grand Master

Sydneykid

Posted
Posted
Well... it sounds to me like your mate has only offended ONCE... he is just taking awhile to clear his first round of defects.  And sounds like you've only been done once too.  All I am saying is that I got defected TWICE (thw two offences were a year apart) by the RTA/EPA... for EXACTLY the same thing... and the second time the EPA took me to court... that is all!

Supra - Lawyer fees were about the same... so all up i think i was let off VERY lightly! :D

Hi Moanie, can you please tell us more about what happened....

How did the know it was EXACTLY the same?

Did they mark the parts?

Take pictures?

I mean you could have had say a HKS exhaust on the first time and a Trust exhaust the second time. They're not the EXACTLY same. For all you know one may be illegal and another legal.

How did they get around that?

Was your car complied under the old or new system?

If it was complied under the old system it didn't have to have a stock standard exhauts on it to be leagally complied. How did they get around that?

When you took it back the first time for inspection, did they mark the parts then?

Or take pictures? I mean they may have approved a non standard exhaust and then busted you for something that they approved. How did they get around that?

How long did you have between the time you were busted and the time you had to take it for inspection?

Did they impound the car in between?

Did you have time to remove the offending parts?

Would they have known if you did?

We are all facing this kind of stuff and the more info we have the better we can defend ourselves.

Moanie Grand Master

Moanie

Posted
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We are all facing this kind of stuff and the more info we have the better we can defend ourselves.

Wow! so many questions! and i guess thats the reason i started this thread... just to make people aware... cause i sure as hell wouldn't have changed everything back if i'd known how bad it could be the second time!

In answer to your questions:

Both times i got defected, I had the same epa guy go over my car (i think theres only one!) He is the same guy that also passed my car for its defects. Him remembering me didn't help! He remembered me getting defected a first time... even remember the location and the approx date... and he also remembered me clearing the defects... including exactly what i had done... he asked me why i'd changed it all back when it was legal! During the first lot of defects, they took pics of my car - the exhaust and the exposed pod.... during the second lot of defects they did the same thing. They'd have records of all these pics. As for the parts being EXACTLY the same... i don't think that matters... what mattered was my car was caught with an illegal pod filter, and the sound levels of my exhaust were over the legal limit (90db @ 4800rpm) for a second time. What they DID know was that i had been caught once... I'd made the necessary changes to fix the problems, and then I deliberately went and changed things back and made them illegal again.

Was your car complied under the old or new system?

If it was complied under the old system it didn't have to have a stock standard exhauts on it to be leagally complied.  How did they get around that?

My car was complied in october 2002... down in melbourne... sorry... don't know anything about what laws it was complied under... what i do know was it was complied with the exposed pod and with the loud exhaust. They didn't look into who complied the car.... and me saying that i'd gotten the car as is, even complied as is, didn't hold any weight.

When you took it back the first time for inspection, did they mark the parts then?  Or take pictures?  I mean they may have approved a non standard exhaust and then busted you for something that they approved.  How did they get around that?

No marking of parts when they pass the car... they just check to see that i've replaced the pod with a stock airbox and that my exhuast is under the legal limit. I should also clarify that it was completely my fault! I was defected the first time, and changed everything to be legal, then went and passed then car, and then changed everything back. so when they caught me the second time, the car was exactly as it was when i was caught the first time. So no, they were not then defecting me on a car that was epa compliant.

How long did you have between the time you were busted and the time you had to take it for inspection?

Did they impound the car in between?

Did you have time to remove the offending parts?

Would they have known if you did?

Umm... they gave me a little while... i think almost a month.. i was also able to call the epa to get this time extended. I had to pass an emmissions test as well, which took quite a few gos to pass, and took me almost 3 months to get through... out of everything... thats the one test you can't fudge, or dodge your way around.

The car was not impounded inbetween all this... i was still driving around... i didn't have a defect sticker either...

Yes they would have known if i'd removed the offending parts as I had to report back to the epa in lidcombe for them (it was the SAME GUY!!!!!!! : ) to once again go over the car, and run their tests to make sure it was all once again legal....

I think i've covered everything!! Hope it helps! let me know if you have any more questions...

Sydneykid Grand Master

Sydneykid

Posted
Posted

Hmm, he broke quite a few "rules"...

1. They are not allowed to ake a photo of your car unless you agree to it, in writing. Did you?

2. The pictures are available to you via the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA).

3. If you have anything different on the second defecting (say change the colour of the POD) it's not a repeat offence =no court. Defence is "your Worship, I though red POD's were illegal, but blue ones were legal."

4. The vehicle complied with DOTARS regulations (ie; it was like that when it was legally complied) and NSW is a signatory to them (like all states) they have no right to overule a Commonwealth Act. I would suggest fighting the first defecting every time on these grounds.

5. POD's aren't illegal, for example in a box they are totally unquestionable. This POD issue is currently being "tested" in the courts as there are vehicles that have exposed filters standard. In fact all filters are "exposed", otherwise the air couldn't get in.

6. Noisy exhausts get caught under the noise polution act, this is not the same issue as the POD. Almost impossible to win on that one. The best way is to refuse to rev the engine at the defect site, the correct words are "my mechanic has advised me that free reving an engine is not god for it. So I will not do it, if you wish to (Mr Inspector) then any engine damage is your responsibility". Watch how fast they back away. They can't defect something if they have no evidence.

Bad luck on the "same guy" :thumbdwn:

R31Nismoid Grand Master

R31Nismoid

Posted
Posted

If i may whore your thread just a little Moanie

4. The vehicle complied with DOTARS regulations (ie; it was like that when it was legally complied) and NSW is a signatory to them (like all states) they have no right to overule a Commonwealth Act.  I would suggest fighting the first defecting every time on these grounds.

Damn your good Gary :D

Im sooo gonna come visit when im in Syd in a few months.

Anyhow, what about a car complied under the 15 year old rule?

Its still a Commonwealth Act correct?

As i've been defected for... wait for it... an Obscured Number Plate.

The number plate is in the factory mounting bracket, the car has been complied/engineered, RWC, and Rego'd but now the TMU (your version of RTA) has tried to 'F me over.

of course im taking it to court, just more ammo for me would help, for me and potentially others too as it seems Vic & NSW are suffering.

Abo Bob Grand Master

Abo Bob

Posted
Posted

Hmm SK...

It wasn't taken to court specifically as a repeat offence. Moanie wasn't actually charged under that part of the act. If she had and been found guilty it would have been a bigger fine as that part is separate from the parts she was charged under.

Under the act it is up to the officer involved as to whether it goes to court or an on the spot fine is issued.

Any idea where it says they can't photograph your car unless given permission in writing? For permission; As far as the law is concerned, unless specically mentioned (as it is occasionally but not as often as you'd think) verbal communications hold just as much weight as written ones as long as the proof exists. For taking photo's; I haven't read the Privacy Act for a couple of years so maybe that's what you're referring to???

I notice that when Moanie went to court she wasn't charged with anything in relation to the pod filter, the only mention of that is on the EPA "Defective Vehicle" notice on which no legal basis is provided. It's just a box that is ticked.

"Refit ( ) Standard air cleaner assembly"

So what that means is that she wasn't charged or fined for the pod but was made to remove it to clear the defect. I don't know whether this is legal or not.

Abo Bob Grand Master

Abo Bob

Posted
Posted

Ok, I've just spoken with the EPA and they use clause 20 of the Protection of the Environment Operations (Noise Control) Regulation 2000 to defect pods.

This means that the 90 dB limit is what applies here. So if your exhaust is under 90 dB there is nothing they can do about your pod. There are strict testing procedures for exhaust noise but nothing prescribed for pod noise so the law is ****ed here.

Clause 20 states :

20 Repairs and modifications

A person must not cause or permit a motor vehicle’s engine, or its air intake or exhaust system, to be modified or repaired in such a manner that the maximum noise level of the motor vehicle after the repair or modification (regardless of the noise level of the motor vehicle before the repair or modification) exceeds the maximum noise level specified in Schedule 1 for that kind of motor vehicle.

Maximum penalty: 100 penalty units in the case of a corporation, 50 penalty units in the case of an individual.

So if you're under 90 dB they got nothing.

more to come...

Abo Bob Grand Master

Abo Bob

Posted
Posted

Ok more info:

The ESMP = Engine Speed at Maximum Power. Test is to be done at 3/4 of ESMP.

This is the revs they test your car at. They have certified certain cars and engines and if they are not on the list then for 6 cylinder engines the engine speed the test is to be done at is 3200 (Woot!)

These are the engine speeds:

R32 GTR 5100

R32 GTST not certified

R33 GTR 5100

R33 GTST 4800

R34 GTR 5100

R34 GTT not certified

I'm overlapping with my other thread here need to find it to linky. Anyone got some spare time to do it for me?

Duncan Grand Master

Duncan

Posted
Posted
Ok more info:

The ESMP = Engine Speed at Maximum Power.  Test is to be done at 3/4 of ESMP.

This is the revs they test your car at.  They have certified certain cars and engines and if they are not on the list then for 6 cylinder engines the engine speed the test is to be done at is 3200 (Woot!)

These are the engine speeds:

R32 GTR 5100

R32 GTST not certified

R33 GTR 5100

R33 GTST 4800

R34 GTR 5100

R34 GTT not certified

I'm overlapping with my other thread here need to find it to linky.  Anyone got some spare time to do it for me?

yep, here's the thread that talks about the testing regs in detail http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/sh...&highlight=ESMP

Beer Baron Grand Master

Beer Baron

Posted
Posted

Abo,

All good points mate. From what I remember pod filters can also be defected as they are an underbonnet fire hazard. So say your exhaust was under the 90db, but you got defected for the pod as a fire hazard, I beleive in these cases you could enclose the pod in a (custom) box (as opposed to re-fitting the factory equipment) and have it passed.

Richard

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