Jump to content
SAU Community

Recommended Posts

It's because i can't afford a 2nd car. If i could i would dedicate the Skyline specially for the track and it would be setup by now. So unlike rich pple like you, i can only work part time as i study to allow myself to have a chance at modifiying my car for the track and feed myself.

I never said anything about being rich.. what if I wanted to go 4wd'ing every now and then but couldn't afford a 2nd car? Why can't I have one but you're allowed to have your track car? :P

So you're just gonna let pple do what they want and accidentally run u off the road due to their incompetant driving? Or let pple do what they want and tailgate you for no apparent reason when the road is clear? Then my friend, you one weird person. A 4wd that's wide, on the other hand, if it starts to drift a little, it's in ur lane already.

Most 4wd's on the market actually take up the same footprint as a van/people-mover. They're just taller. As for your other comments about me being happy for people to drive like idiots - i think you're a little misguided there. :) At no time did I say I advocated bad driving, all I've said is that the car doesn't make the driver. A sh*t driver is still a hazzard in a small or large car.

I intend to track my car at least once a mth once it's set up. Yes i don't need it, it's a want, and i bought the car with a purpose in mind. To drive the car for what it's made for, and regularly. Pple with the intention of a 4wd almost never see the offroad. I can even safely say, there are 4wd's out there, that has never used it's 4wd ability for offroading, and only city driving + transportation.

There's lots of people who have fast cars who don't use them on the track. Does that mean they can't have them?

import vs 4WD

People buy imports because they are an enthusiast and want something that the local market cant offer.

People who buy urban 4WD's buy them because they want the biggest safest thing on the road. 4WD's are usually over 2 tonne and have high CG. Tell me how this is safe? Biggest - Yes, Safest - NO! Buy a volvo if you want safe!

I never said anything about them being safe. Though you can't honestly say the jap import tin cans that we drive around in are safe either. I'm under no illusions that my lightweight skyline (r33 :( ) will provide me with much protection during a crash. Anything moving at speed is dangerous.

4wds, the same as with high powered cars, need to be driven in a certain manner to make them safe to use. How many in-experienced drivers crash either one? Lots...

You guys are making some pretty heavy assumptions on why people buy 4wds. Where are you getting the info from? How do you know which one is a city cowboy and which one isn't? Because it's clean? Or because of the way it's driven? I'm sure there are plenty that go offroad that are still sh*t drivers on the street.

Here's another thought - wouldn't you like your family safe inside a 2T cocoon because there's the chance some speeding import driver is going to smash into them? I'm not saying this is my view, but you'd be stupid to think it's not the view of the baby boomers.

Edited by caminperth
  • Replies 194
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

If you look at modified imports they are pretty much the same as hotrods back in the 30's. Engine swaps, tweaked suspension, custom paintjobs, etc are almost as old as the automobile itself. It screams individuality.

4WD's were originally developed as a war vehicle. Yes I understand there is a need for them in the public. People like Steve Irwin need to drive them. But driving them around cities is the same as if Landrover released a sherman tank for urban use (no cannons on it). Would this be ok?

Ok it is illegal to have a car lowered more than 10cm to the ground. It is also illegal to raise a car by more than 2 inches. How is it that any 4WD is legal standard then?

Nothing wrong with individuality at all. Never said there was. Though from listening to some of the comments here, people should either drive an import because they're cool like us, or drive an excel.

Tanks, Steve Irwin? cmon man.. that's way lame. :P

Lowered vs raised - deviation from standard build, not from a standard height. You can't be serious?

Nothing wrong with individuality at all. Never said there was. Though from listening to some of the comments here, people should either drive an import because they're cool like us, or drive an excel.

Tanks, Steve Irwin? cmon man.. that's way lame. :P

Lowered vs raised - deviation from standard build, not from a standard height. You can't be serious?

So you are saying if a car came out standard that was only 2 cms off the ground that would be ok?

People dont buy 4WD's to be an individual. They buy them to use them off road - which is great. Or they buy them because of their size/safety. They feel as if they have an accident they will be ok although they will more than likely kill the other person. This is very selfish dont you think?

High performance imports dont block people's view and dont cause extra damage in accidents. They also dont account for two thirds of accidents with small children at slow speeds like 4WD's do. But yes imports do fit into normal car park spots. Stop saying its a matter of choice because it isnt. It is my choice to drive a normal car (a charade) and be safe. Not be ran off the road or killed in a accident by a car that has a higher impact zone than my car.

Look 4WD's should not be banned because there is a genuine need for them. But they are getting built nowadays for the "urban jungle" where the most off road they will see is driving up a gutter to get a parking spot.

So you are saying if a car came out standard that was only 2 cms off the ground that would be ok?

If it met ADR then yep, it sure would. As far as the law was concerned anyway.

People dont buy 4WD's to be an individual. They buy them to use them off road - which is great. Or they buy them because of their size/safety. They feel as if they have an accident they will be ok although they will more than likely kill the other person. This is very selfish dont you think?

How do you know that? What if someone bought one because they liked it and thought it matched the type of car/4wd they wanted? I'm sure they don't wilfully buy them to kill others in accidents. :P As for selfish behaviour, anyone in a performance car is guilty of that every now and then - the right foot is easy to push down.

High performance imports dont block people's view and dont cause extra damage in accidents.

Dark tint and high speed accidents associated with this genre of cars seems to state otherwise.

They also dont account for two thirds of accidents with small children at slow speeds like 4WD's do.

Got any hard facts to back this one up?

But yes imports do fit into normal car park spots.

Only if parked correctly. So will most 4wd's with the exception of a Hummer or an F series - now there's a crazy car for the burbs! :)

Stop saying its a matter of choice because it isnt. It is my choice to drive a normal car (a charade) and be safe. Not be ran off the road or killed in a accident by a car that has a higher impact zone than my car.

Again, it is a matter of choice. I'm not saying they're not more dangerous in an accident, but I think you'll find that there's a reason we pay stupid insurance premiums and most 4wd owners don't.

Look 4WD's should not be banned because there is a genuine need for them. But they are getting built nowadays for the "urban jungle" where the most off road they will see is driving up a gutter to get a parking spot.

Agreed. But if that's what people want, why should a few crap drivers take it away from all the others? If that were the case, two door sports cars would've been banned for anyone under 35 years ago...

Again - it's not the 4wd's fault, it's the baby boomer behind the wheel. They should be the one's banned..

We should be starting a thread of bad Perth drivers...

A four-wheel-drive (4WD) or light commercial vehicle (LCV) was involved in 34% of injuries in which the child survived, compared with 64% of those with a fatal outcome. Overall, these vehicles accounted for 42% of all injuries. They were associated with a 2.5-times greater risk of fatality compared with other motor vehicles. In 42 cases, the vehicle reversed over the child; 4WDs and LCVs accounted for 19 of these cases.

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_04...nd/holland.html

64% Fatal Outcome. 2.5x Greater risk. Do the math. On 34% of injuries which the child survived is from a 4WD/LCV. Meaning more chances of survival if it's a normal sedan, and higher chance of death if it's a 4WD/LCV. Substantial enough?

But this is where your argument falls down. Your car has the POTENTIAL to make heaps of noise and exceed the speed limit. (as do all of ours ) Why do you need to use a "track" car on the road?

Then how may i ask do i afford a car and a track car at any one time? I need something as transport. If you can offer a cheaper alternative. EG: having the car not registered and me driving a normal car, and the cost of having the non reged car as a track car with monthly track days be cheaper. By all means, please do tell, i'm up for the idea. If not i have no other choice but to drive the car as if it were a normal car.

I never said anything about being rich.. what if I wanted to go 4wd'ing every now and then but couldn't afford a 2nd car? Why can't I have one but you're allowed to have your track car?  :D

Most 4wd's on the market actually take up the same footprint as a van/people-mover. They're just taller. As for your other comments about me being happy for people to drive like idiots - i think you're a little misguided there.  :D At no time did I say I advocated bad driving, all I've said is that the car doesn't make the driver. A sh*t driver is still a hazzard in a small or large car.

There's lots of people who have fast cars who don't use them on the track. Does that mean they can't have them?

I never said anything about them being safe. Though you can't honestly say the jap import tin cans that we drive around in are safe either. I'm under no illusions that my lightweight skyline (r33 :) ) will provide me with much protection during a crash. Anything moving at speed is dangerous.

4wds, the same as with high powered cars, need to be driven in a certain manner to make them safe to use. How many in-experienced drivers crash either one? Lots...

You guys are making some pretty heavy assumptions on why people buy 4wds. Where are you getting the info from? How do you know which one is a city cowboy and which one isn't? Because it's clean? Or because of the way it's driven? I'm sure there are plenty that go offroad that are still sh*t drivers on the street.

Here's another thought - wouldn't you like your family safe inside a 2T cocoon because there's the chance some speeding import driver is going to smash into them? I'm not saying this is my view, but you'd be stupid to think it's not the view of the baby boomers.

Alrighty, how do i know they don't use it for off roading? Cause pple told me themselves. Straight from the mouth, and that's 3 out of 4 pple i know that don't go anywhere off road with their 4wd.

You didn't advocate bad driving, but u just said, let them buy what they want, and do what they want without us being annyoed by their driving. But the fact is, WE ARE ANNOYED. Another issue is, u said if a person is a shitty driver, they will cause trouble no matter what? It ain't the case. A small car is very easy to manover around in comparison to a big car. Imagine driving a toyota corolla making a sharp right turn, and a 4wd, which car would have to take a bigger turning radius? Which car would have a higher chance of mounting a kerb?

The big car amplifies the in ability to drive properly. As i've stated the example of the car drifting into other pple's lanes. A 4wd barely fits the road width, so if the person were to drift a little to the left or the right, he/she'd be in someone else's lane. But if it were a small car, there would be ample time for the person to notice he/she is not in the center of the lane. Am i not right to say?

Another example of amplification. Parking. If a small car were to park slanted at the most extreme angle possible in it's own parking space, replicate that angle with a 4wd. It'll definitely be out of the lot. Yes No?

If the 4wd were to hit a car at 60km/hr and a normal car hit another car at 60km/hr. Let's say Normal car = 1tonne. and 4wd is 2 tonnes. F=MA. Again, who would cause more damage?

A 4WD is the same size as a pple mover. Alrighty, then consider this, what if comes a day, everyone drives a 4WD and u're the only skyline around. ? Can u see past anything? In comparison to almost everyone is driving skylines and only a few pple are driving 4WD? The issue with 4WD is visibility. I have a habit of looking further in front in case of an emergency so that i can anticipate it and brake softly and in time. But if it were a 4wd in front of me, i wouldn't be able to see a thing, and if he by any chance slams his brakes, i would have to also. And don't tell me to keep a safe distance, i always do from these kinda vehicles. So much so that pple get annoyed with me. It's just the fear of ramming someone or someone ramming into me.

Cheers! :)

C'mon guys.....

1% of 4wd drivers take their cars 4wding

1% of skyline drivers take their cars to the track

what is the difference.

Yes, no doubt 4wds are over represented in reversing over children. I bet HPIs are also over represented in teens killing themselves too.

Its no different, we are just in a different niche/demographic.

I'lll guarantee you if this thread was on a 4wd forum there would be the exact opposite point of view

Exactly the point I was trying to make Duncan.

What a laugh - these two obviously have small penis syndrome and can't handle that someone might have a bigger car than them.. :D

"It's ok for me to have my uber wicked super loud drift fast track car on the road cause I can't afford not to - but those 4wd's - wow, a few have cut me off in the last few months - they should all be banned!"

:(

Edited by caminperth

Should introduce a vehicle wieght tax!!! --> most 4wds and SUVs (well at least the tanks that you can not see over) would all be well over two tonnes.

Or fine all owners of clean 4wds (if its clean its not being used for what is designed to do) --> Hopefully Stop yuppie wanks (99% of all 4wd owners) from driving them in the city just because they feel that they need to do the damage instead of recieve the damage if they are in an accident.

Honestly - do import cars cause problems on the road?? No.. (This is not including driver error etc which can happen in any car) I just don't see how an import could. You might say an import is fast and speeds a lot - but that all depends on HOW and by WHO it is driven by not because of the type of car it is.. You might say that we are two different groups complaining about each others choice of cars, but its not - 4WD's are a genuine problem on the road - the main thing I hate about them is visibility issues they cause, particulary when pulling out next to one..

Josh, there was a guy my age slammed his dads r34 into a power pole near my house not too long ago. You probably heard about it. He was probably doing about 180kph and hit a bump in the road and lost control. If he was in a 4wd he wouldn't have been able to get up to anywhere near that speed, and his car wouldn't have lost control when it hit the bump.

I understand the visibility issues, but if people need space they generally buy a 4wd. If they can't do that they will buy a people mover. So getting rid of 4wds probably won't help much.

Also, don't 4wds still have lower tax than cars? If so bringing the tax up on par with cars would be a small deterrent to people wanting to buy 4wds when they never go off road.

shyster - about the fellow in the R34, thats not the cars fault - that is the drivers fault, sure if he was in a 4wd he wouldn't be doing those speeds BUT the fact is it was his choice to go that fast, not the car. It was a very unfortunate thing to happen.

If used correctly the car isn't dangerous whereas the 4wd still would be, just by its presence on the road it blocks visibility etc. The import however doesn't..

and yeh a higher tax for 4wds would be ideal... could deter some people from purchasing...

Honestly - do import cars cause problems on the road?? No.. (This is not including driver error etc which can happen in any car)

HehehahahahHAHAHAHEHEHEHE!!

whew... that's a good one.. Import cars are just as dangerous and do cause problems if used incorrectly - why do you think there was such a media stir in the past over them? A few people ruin it for others.. If not used correctly, they can cause some major harm as can a 4wd.

You guys have got your head in the sand.. 4wd's are only dangerous if they crash or if the person can't drive.. same as any vehicle.. if used correctly, they're fine..

REdgtst - a clean 4wd means the person doesn't use it offroad? Nice one.. we usually keep them clean on our minesites, but we also do some of the most arduous 4wding you'll hear of..

Kieth - I jolly well don't. You guys are seriously flawed applying arguments to others that somehow don't apply to yourselves or the group of cars you belong to..

Josh - the vision issue can be a problem for any car in any situation. It might happen more with 4wd's, but I hardly see it as a reason to ban them..

Dan - in a charade, isn't ANYTHING going to cause you vision issues? :(

*cast*

Edited by caminperth
Josh, there was a guy my age slammed his dads r34 into a power pole near my house not too long ago. You probably heard about it. He was probably doing about 180kph and hit a bump in the road and lost control. If he was in a 4wd he wouldn't have been able to get up to anywhere near that speed, and his car wouldn't have lost control when it hit the bump.

I understand the visibility issues, but if people need space they generally buy a 4wd. If they can't do that they will buy a people mover. So getting rid of 4wds probably won't help much.

Also, don't 4wds still have lower tax than cars? If so bringing the tax up on par with cars would be a small deterrent to people wanting to buy 4wds when they never go off road.

FYI. I did 180km/hr in a Rav4. Thou it's not a full fleged 4WD, 4WDs are cabable of speed if you set ur mind to it. It just depends on the driver. Also a 4WD hitting a bump at those kinda speeds is just as, or even more disasterous.




  • Similar Content

  • Latest Posts

    • Hey Dave, welcome aboard! Good to see another soon-to-be Stagea owner here. The wagons are awesome — plenty of space, still got that Skyline DNA, and loads of potential if you’re into mods. Definitely post up pics when you get it, everyone here loves seeing new builds. What model/year are you looking at?
    • See if you can thermal epoxy a heatsink or two onto it?
    • The other problem was one of those "oh shit we are going to die moments". Basically the high spec Q50s have a full electric steering rack, and the povo ones had a regular hydraulic rack with an electric pump.  So couple of laps into session 5 as I came into turn 2 (big run off now, happily), the dash turned into a christmas tree and the steering became super heavy and I went well off. I assumed it was a tyre failure so limped to the pits, but everything was OK. But....the master warning light was still on so I checked the DTCs and saw – C13E6 “Heat Protection”. Yes, that bloody steering rack computer sitting where the oil cooler should be has its own sensors and error logic, and decided I was using the steering wheel too much. I really appreciated the helpful information in the manual (my bold) POSSIBLE CAUSE • Continuing the overloading steering (Sports driving in the circuit etc,) “DATA MONITOR” >> “C/M TEMPERATURE”. The rise of steering force motor internal temperature caused the protection function to operate. This is not a system malfunction. INSPECTION END So, basically the electric motor in the steering rack got to 150c, and it decided to shut down without warning for my safety. Didn't feel safe. Short term I'll see if I can duct some air to that motor (the engine bay is sealed pretty tight). Long term, depending on how often this happens, I'll look into swapping the povo spec electric/hydraulic rack in. While the rack should be fine the power supply to the pump will be a pain and might be best to deal with it when I add a PDM.
    • And finally, 2 problems I really need to sort.  Firstly as Matt said the auto trans is not happy as it gets hot - I couldn't log the temps but the gauge showed 90o. On the first day I took it out back in Feb, because the coolant was getting hot I never got to any auto trans issues; but on this day by late session 3 and then really clearly in 4 and 5 as it got hotter it just would not shift up. You can hear the issue really clearly at 12:55 and 16:20 on the vid. So the good news is, literally this week Ecutek finally released tuning for the jatco 7 speed. I'll have a chat to Racebox and see what they can do electrically to keep it cooler and to get the gears, if anything. That will likely take some R&D and can only really happen on track as it never gets even warm with road use. I've also picked up some eye wateringly expensive Redline D6 ATF to try, it had the highest viscosity I could find at 100o so we will see if that helps (just waiting for some oil pan gaskets so I can change it properly). If neither of those work I need to remove the coolant/trans interwarmer and the radiator cooler and go to an external cooler....somewhere.....(goodbye washer reservoir?), and if that fails give up on this mad idea and wait for Nissan to release the manual 400R
    • So, what else.... Power. I don't know what it is making because I haven't done a post tune dyno run yet; I will when I get a chance. It was 240rwkw dead stock. Conclusion from the day....it does not need a single kw more until I sort some other stuff. It comes on so hard that I could hear the twin N1 turbos on the R32 crying, and I just can't use what it has around a tight track with the current setup. Brakes. They are perfect. Hit them hard all day and they never felt like having an issue; you can see in the video we were making ground on much lighter cars on better tyres under brakes. They are standard (red sport) calipers, standard size discs in DBA5000 2 piece, Winmax pads and Motul RBF600 fluid, all from Matty at Racebrakes Sydney. Keeping in mind the car is more powerful than my R32 and weighs 1780, he clearly knows his shit. Suspension. This is one of the first areas I need to change. It has electronically controlled dampers from factory, but everything is just way too soft for track work even on the hardest setting (it is nice when hustling on country roads though). In particular it rolls into oversteer mid corner and pitches too much under hard braking so it becomes unstable eg in the turn 1 kink I need to brake early, turn through the kink then brake again so I don't pirouette like an AE86. I need to get some decent shocks with matched springs and sway bars ASAP, even if it is just a v1 setup until I work out a proper race/rally setup later. Tyres. I am running Yoko A052 in 235/45/18 all round, because that was what I could get in approximately the right height on wheels I had in the shed (Rays/Nismo 18x8 off the old Leaf actually!). As track tyres they are pretty poor; I note GTSBoy recently posted a porker comparo video including them where they were about the same as AD09.....that is nothing like a top line track tyre. I'll start getting that sorted but realistically I should get proper sized wheels first (likely 9.5 +38 front and 11 +55 at the rear, so a custom order, and I can't rotate them like the R32), then work out what the best tyre option is. BTW on that, Targa Tas had gone to road tyres instead of semi slicks now so that is a whole other world of choices to sort. Diff. This is the other thing that urgently needs to be addressed. It left massive 1s out of the fish hook all day, even when I was trying not too (you can also hear it reving on the video, and see the RPM rising too fast compared to speed in the data). It has an open diff that Infiniti optimistically called a B-LSD for "Brake Limited Slip Diff". It does good straight line standing start 11s but it is woeful on the track. Nismo seem to make a 2 way for it.
×
×
  • Create New...