Anti - 4wd/suv Discussion

[caminperth]

It's because i can't afford a 2nd car. If i could i would dedicate the Skyline specially for the track and it would be setup by now. So unlike rich pple like you, i can only work part time as i study to allow myself to have a chance at modifiying my car for the track and feed myself.

I never said anything about being rich.. what if I wanted to go 4wd'ing every now and then but couldn't afford a 2nd car? Why can't I have one but you're allowed to have your track car?

So you're just gonna let pple do what they want and accidentally run u off the road due to their incompetant driving? Or let pple do what they want and tailgate you for no apparent reason when the road is clear? Then my friend, you one weird person. A 4wd that's wide, on the other hand, if it starts to drift a little, it's in ur lane already.

Most 4wd's on the market actually take up the same footprint as a van/people-mover. They're just taller. As for your other comments about me being happy for people to drive like idiots - i think you're a little misguided there. At no time did I say I advocated bad driving, all I've said is that the car doesn't make the driver. A sh*t driver is still a hazzard in a small or large car.

I intend to track my car at least once a mth once it's set up. Yes i don't need it, it's a want, and i bought the car with a purpose in mind. To drive the car for what it's made for, and regularly. Pple with the intention of a 4wd almost never see the offroad. I can even safely say, there are 4wd's out there, that has never used it's 4wd ability for offroading, and only city driving + transportation.

There's lots of people who have fast cars who don't use them on the track. Does that mean they can't have them?

import vs 4WD

People buy imports because they are an enthusiast and want something that the local market cant offer.

People who buy urban 4WD's buy them because they want the biggest safest thing on the road. 4WD's are usually over 2 tonne and have high CG. Tell me how this is safe? Biggest - Yes, Safest - NO! Buy a volvo if you want safe!

I never said anything about them being safe. Though you can't honestly say the jap import tin cans that we drive around in are safe either. I'm under no illusions that my lightweight skyline (r33 ) will provide me with much protection during a crash. Anything moving at speed is dangerous.

4wds, the same as with high powered cars, need to be driven in a certain manner to make them safe to use. How many in-experienced drivers crash either one? Lots...

You guys are making some pretty heavy assumptions on why people buy 4wds. Where are you getting the info from? How do you know which one is a city cowboy and which one isn't? Because it's clean? Or because of the way it's driven? I'm sure there are plenty that go offroad that are still sh*t drivers on the street.

Here's another thought - wouldn't you like your family safe inside a 2T cocoon because there's the chance some speeding import driver is going to smash into them? I'm not saying this is my view, but you'd be stupid to think it's not the view of the baby boomers.

Edited November 15, 2005 by caminperth

[caminperth]

If you look at modified imports they are pretty much the same as hotrods back in the 30's. Engine swaps, tweaked suspension, custom paintjobs, etc are almost as old as the automobile itself. It screams individuality.

4WD's were originally developed as a war vehicle. Yes I understand there is a need for them in the public. People like Steve Irwin need to drive them. But driving them around cities is the same as if Landrover released a sherman tank for urban use (no cannons on it). Would this be ok?

Ok it is illegal to have a car lowered more than 10cm to the ground. It is also illegal to raise a car by more than 2 inches. How is it that any 4WD is legal standard then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nothing wrong with individuality at all. Never said there was. Though from listening to some of the comments here, people should either drive an import because they're cool like us, or drive an excel.

Tanks, Steve Irwin? cmon man.. that's way lame.

Lowered vs raised - deviation from standard build, not from a standard height. You can't be serious?

[DanR33]

Nothing wrong with individuality at all. Never said there was. Though from listening to some of the comments here, people should either drive an import because they're cool like us, or drive an excel.

Tanks, Steve Irwin? cmon man.. that's way lame.

Lowered vs raised - deviation from standard build, not from a standard height. You can't be serious?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you are saying if a car came out standard that was only 2 cms off the ground that would be ok?

People dont buy 4WD's to be an individual. They buy them to use them off road - which is great. Or they buy them because of their size/safety. They feel as if they have an accident they will be ok although they will more than likely kill the other person. This is very selfish dont you think?

High performance imports dont block people's view and dont cause extra damage in accidents. They also dont account for two thirds of accidents with small children at slow speeds like 4WD's do. But yes imports do fit into normal car park spots. Stop saying its a matter of choice because it isnt. It is my choice to drive a normal car (a charade) and be safe. Not be ran off the road or killed in a accident by a car that has a higher impact zone than my car.

Look 4WD's should not be banned because there is a genuine need for them. But they are getting built nowadays for the "urban jungle" where the most off road they will see is driving up a gutter to get a parking spot.

[caminperth]

So you are saying if a car came out standard that was only 2 cms off the ground that would be ok?

If it met ADR then yep, it sure would. As far as the law was concerned anyway.

People dont buy 4WD's to be an individual. They buy them to use them off road - which is great. Or they buy them because of their size/safety. They feel as if they have an accident they will be ok although they will more than likely kill the other person. This is very selfish dont you think?

How do you know that? What if someone bought one because they liked it and thought it matched the type of car/4wd they wanted? I'm sure they don't wilfully buy them to kill others in accidents. As for selfish behaviour, anyone in a performance car is guilty of that every now and then - the right foot is easy to push down.

High performance imports dont block people's view and dont cause extra damage in accidents.

Dark tint and high speed accidents associated with this genre of cars seems to state otherwise.

They also dont account for two thirds of accidents with small children at slow speeds like 4WD's do.

Got any hard facts to back this one up?

But yes imports do fit into normal car park spots.

Only if parked correctly. So will most 4wd's with the exception of a Hummer or an F series - now there's a crazy car for the burbs!

Stop saying its a matter of choice because it isnt. It is my choice to drive a normal car (a charade) and be safe. Not be ran off the road or killed in a accident by a car that has a higher impact zone than my car.

Again, it is a matter of choice. I'm not saying they're not more dangerous in an accident, but I think you'll find that there's a reason we pay stupid insurance premiums and most 4wd owners don't.

Look 4WD's should not be banned because there is a genuine need for them. But they are getting built nowadays for the "urban jungle" where the most off road they will see is driving up a gutter to get a parking spot.

Agreed. But if that's what people want, why should a few crap drivers take it away from all the others? If that were the case, two door sports cars would've been banned for anyone under 35 years ago...

Again - it's not the 4wd's fault, it's the baby boomer behind the wheel. They should be the one's banned..

We should be starting a thread of bad Perth drivers...

[KeeFy]

A four-wheel-drive (4WD) or light commercial vehicle (LCV) was involved in 34% of injuries in which the child survived, compared with 64% of those with a fatal outcome. Overall, these vehicles accounted for 42% of all injuries. They were associated with a 2.5-times greater risk of fatality compared with other motor vehicles. In 42 cases, the vehicle reversed over the child; 4WDs and LCVs accounted for 19 of these cases.

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_04...nd/holland.html

[KeeFy]

64% Fatal Outcome. 2.5x Greater risk. Do the math. On 34% of injuries which the child survived is from a 4WD/LCV. Meaning more chances of survival if it's a normal sedan, and higher chance of death if it's a 4WD/LCV. Substantial enough?

[KeeFy]

http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/mpaine/4wd.html#crash

A good write up on the saftey of 4WDs.

[KeeFy]

http://www.walk.com.au/pedestriancouncil/P...asp?PageID=1211

[KeeFy]

But this is where your argument falls down. Your car has the POTENTIAL to make heaps of noise and exceed the speed limit. (as do all of ours ) Why do you need to use a "track" car on the road?

Then how may i ask do i afford a car and a track car at any one time? I need something as transport. If you can offer a cheaper alternative. EG: having the car not registered and me driving a normal car, and the cost of having the non reged car as a track car with monthly track days be cheaper. By all means, please do tell, i'm up for the idea. If not i have no other choice but to drive the car as if it were a normal car.

[KeeFy]

I never said anything about being rich.. what if I wanted to go 4wd'ing every now and then but couldn't afford a 2nd car? Why can't I have one but you're allowed to have your track car? 

Most 4wd's on the market actually take up the same footprint as a van/people-mover. They're just taller. As for your other comments about me being happy for people to drive like idiots - i think you're a little misguided there.  At no time did I say I advocated bad driving, all I've said is that the car doesn't make the driver. A sh*t driver is still a hazzard in a small or large car.

There's lots of people who have fast cars who don't use them on the track. Does that mean they can't have them?

I never said anything about them being safe. Though you can't honestly say the jap import tin cans that we drive around in are safe either. I'm under no illusions that my lightweight skyline (r33 ) will provide me with much protection during a crash. Anything moving at speed is dangerous.

4wds, the same as with high powered cars, need to be driven in a certain manner to make them safe to use. How many in-experienced drivers crash either one? Lots...

You guys are making some pretty heavy assumptions on why people buy 4wds. Where are you getting the info from? How do you know which one is a city cowboy and which one isn't? Because it's clean? Or because of the way it's driven? I'm sure there are plenty that go offroad that are still sh*t drivers on the street.

Here's another thought - wouldn't you like your family safe inside a 2T cocoon because there's the chance some speeding import driver is going to smash into them? I'm not saying this is my view, but you'd be stupid to think it's not the view of the baby boomers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alrighty, how do i know they don't use it for off roading? Cause pple told me themselves. Straight from the mouth, and that's 3 out of 4 pple i know that don't go anywhere off road with their 4wd.

You didn't advocate bad driving, but u just said, let them buy what they want, and do what they want without us being annyoed by their driving. But the fact is, WE ARE ANNOYED. Another issue is, u said if a person is a shitty driver, they will cause trouble no matter what? It ain't the case. A small car is very easy to manover around in comparison to a big car. Imagine driving a toyota corolla making a sharp right turn, and a 4wd, which car would have to take a bigger turning radius? Which car would have a higher chance of mounting a kerb?

The big car amplifies the in ability to drive properly. As i've stated the example of the car drifting into other pple's lanes. A 4wd barely fits the road width, so if the person were to drift a little to the left or the right, he/she'd be in someone else's lane. But if it were a small car, there would be ample time for the person to notice he/she is not in the center of the lane. Am i not right to say?

Another example of amplification. Parking. If a small car were to park slanted at the most extreme angle possible in it's own parking space, replicate that angle with a 4wd. It'll definitely be out of the lot. Yes No?

If the 4wd were to hit a car at 60km/hr and a normal car hit another car at 60km/hr. Let's say Normal car = 1tonne. and 4wd is 2 tonnes. F=MA. Again, who would cause more damage?

A 4WD is the same size as a pple mover. Alrighty, then consider this, what if comes a day, everyone drives a 4WD and u're the only skyline around. ? Can u see past anything? In comparison to almost everyone is driving skylines and only a few pple are driving 4WD? The issue with 4WD is visibility. I have a habit of looking further in front in case of an emergency so that i can anticipate it and brake softly and in time. But if it were a 4wd in front of me, i wouldn't be able to see a thing, and if he by any chance slams his brakes, i would have to also. And don't tell me to keep a safe distance, i always do from these kinda vehicles. So much so that pple get annoyed with me. It's just the fear of ramming someone or someone ramming into me.

Cheers!

[Josh]

If my car is noisy - so what? Its against the law - but its not going to hurt anyone... (unless excessively noisey - like enough to peirce ear drums - but really noone is gunna get away with that..)

[Duncan]

C'mon guys.....

1% of 4wd drivers take their cars 4wding

1% of skyline drivers take their cars to the track

what is the difference.

Yes, no doubt 4wds are over represented in reversing over children. I bet HPIs are also over represented in teens killing themselves too.

Its no different, we are just in a different niche/demographic.

I'lll guarantee you if this thread was on a 4wd forum there would be the exact opposite point of view

[caminperth]

Exactly the point I was trying to make Duncan.

What a laugh - these two obviously have small penis syndrome and can't handle that someone might have a bigger car than them..

"It's ok for me to have my uber wicked super loud drift fast track car on the road cause I can't afford not to - but those 4wd's - wow, a few have cut me off in the last few months - they should all be banned!"

Edited November 15, 2005 by caminperth

[KeeFy]

You jolly well know where ur argument flaws are. Thanks for the white flag.

Cheers!

[REdgtst]

Should introduce a vehicle wieght tax!!! --> most 4wds and SUVs (well at least the tanks that you can not see over) would all be well over two tonnes.

Or fine all owners of clean 4wds (if its clean its not being used for what is designed to do) --> Hopefully Stop yuppie wanks (99% of all 4wd owners) from driving them in the city just because they feel that they need to do the damage instead of recieve the damage if they are in an accident.

[Josh]

Honestly - do import cars cause problems on the road?? No.. (This is not including driver error etc which can happen in any car) I just don't see how an import could. You might say an import is fast and speeds a lot - but that all depends on HOW and by WHO it is driven by not because of the type of car it is.. You might say that we are two different groups complaining about each others choice of cars, but its not - 4WD's are a genuine problem on the road - the main thing I hate about them is visibility issues they cause, particulary when pulling out next to one..

[Patto-]

Josh, there was a guy my age slammed his dads r34 into a power pole near my house not too long ago. You probably heard about it. He was probably doing about 180kph and hit a bump in the road and lost control. If he was in a 4wd he wouldn't have been able to get up to anywhere near that speed, and his car wouldn't have lost control when it hit the bump.

I understand the visibility issues, but if people need space they generally buy a 4wd. If they can't do that they will buy a people mover. So getting rid of 4wds probably won't help much.

Also, don't 4wds still have lower tax than cars? If so bringing the tax up on par with cars would be a small deterrent to people wanting to buy 4wds when they never go off road.

[Josh]

shyster - about the fellow in the R34, thats not the cars fault - that is the drivers fault, sure if he was in a 4wd he wouldn't be doing those speeds BUT the fact is it was his choice to go that fast, not the car. It was a very unfortunate thing to happen.

If used correctly the car isn't dangerous whereas the 4wd still would be, just by its presence on the road it blocks visibility etc. The import however doesn't..

and yeh a higher tax for 4wds would be ideal... could deter some people from purchasing...

[caminperth]

Honestly - do import cars cause problems on the road?? No.. (This is not including driver error etc which can happen in any car)

HehehahahahHAHAHAHEHEHEHE!!

whew... that's a good one.. Import cars are just as dangerous and do cause problems if used incorrectly - why do you think there was such a media stir in the past over them? A few people ruin it for others.. If not used correctly, they can cause some major harm as can a 4wd.

You guys have got your head in the sand.. 4wd's are only dangerous if they crash or if the person can't drive.. same as any vehicle.. if used correctly, they're fine..

REdgtst - a clean 4wd means the person doesn't use it offroad? Nice one.. we usually keep them clean on our minesites, but we also do some of the most arduous 4wding you'll hear of..

Kieth - I jolly well don't. You guys are seriously flawed applying arguments to others that somehow don't apply to yourselves or the group of cars you belong to..

Josh - the vision issue can be a problem for any car in any situation. It might happen more with 4wd's, but I hardly see it as a reason to ban them..

Dan - in a charade, isn't ANYTHING going to cause you vision issues?

*cast*

Edited November 16, 2005 by caminperth

[KeeFy]

Josh, there was a guy my age slammed his dads r34 into a power pole near my house not too long ago. You probably heard about it. He was probably doing about 180kph and hit a bump in the road and lost control. If he was in a 4wd he wouldn't have been able to get up to anywhere near that speed, and his car wouldn't have lost control when it hit the bump.

I understand the visibility issues, but if people need space they generally buy a 4wd. If they can't do that they will buy a people mover. So getting rid of 4wds probably won't help much.

Also, don't 4wds still have lower tax than cars? If so bringing the tax up on par with cars would be a small deterrent to people wanting to buy 4wds when they never go off road.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

FYI. I did 180km/hr in a Rav4. Thou it's not a full fleged 4WD, 4WDs are cabable of speed if you set ur mind to it. It just depends on the driver. Also a 4WD hitting a bump at those kinda speeds is just as, or even more disasterous.