Undercover Police With P-plates

[scathing]

Since you're quite fond of using drugs as an analogy, let me try one on. I realise you said you weren't going to reply, so I'll leave it out there for other people to consider.

Lets say you're walking down the road. Some cop runs up to you, clearly in a hurry, and says, "Hey, I need you to hang on to this!"

"What is it?" you ask as you reach out.

"Its a kilo of heroin that I'll need later as evidence. C'mon! I've gotta go arrest a criminal!" and quickly thrusts it in your hand.

Most people, in that instance, would probably have grabbed the package before reacting to the fact that its drugs just because its being offered to them. I'll leave it in the mind of the reasonable reader, who knows that sitting here thinking about it is a lot different to being there at the time when some police officer is right in front of you, as to whether they'd take it even if they did have time to react to the information on what is in the package.

So, you take the package.

And then he arrests you for possession of illict substances (lucky his "criminal" was so close!), and in a quantity that is merchantable (I can't remember the exact term for carrying enough to be a dealer).

You knew it was illegal before you took it. And since you're holding it, technically you're in possession.

Righteous bust? Apparently so if its OK for cops to set you up as long as you're given a "choice".

[Arkhaeon]

Now for a year-long bump.

Scathing has been spot on the money this entire thread, and AdamsR33 made himself look completely stupid, over and over again.

Food for thought on the undercover cops scenario; Ive had quite a few attempted baitings and I can assure you that the cops are indeed being extremely dangerous. I dont do silly shenanigans on the street, and have a tendancy to just roll my eyes (and occasionally flip off) anybody that tries to race me.

These undercover cops dont always just come up beside you and rev. Ive had one sit about 30cm from my rear bar, backing off and accelerating hard over and over, flying past then cutting in front etc. "Just ignore it" is hardly an option in that sort of situation!!

One of Scathings examples said quite clearly that the victim might accelerate harder than usual in frustration of the situation - this also extends to getting away from the knobjockey that is trying their best to put you into a telegraph pole. If that wasnt a cop, I would have been quite inclined to shoot down a sidestreet at a million miles an hour in fear that they were trying to carjack me.

Looking back, I wish I got the numberplate on that car (as it passed me I saw it was a cop) and reported it, but spending the next hour at a friends' place in a fuming rage felt more appropriate at the time.

[evesdropping]

Agreed that scathing was right and the other guy didn't get it.

This bit was funny: :laughing-smiley-014:

Yet they still manage to catch wife beaters without f**king a bloke's wife so he'll get emotional, lose control, and beat the shit out of her

It is definitely wrong for the police to initiate the race in my opinion.

[Kel]

A hypothetical question…

What do you reckon the family of that couple killed in the incident earlier this week in Western Sydney- "allegedly" as a result of one or more persons street racing- think of this topic?

I have no in depth knowledge of this case- other than what I have read & researched in the last few days.

However, the friends and family of Alan and Judith Howle now have a very good understanding of this topic. And like them, I wouldn't care if someone stopped the "alleged" idiot/s well before they got to the point of harming someone- the method of catching them is in my opinion a technicality.

You decide how you act and react on the roads- no one else.

Is it more or less dangerous to misbehave when you’re challenged to a ‘race’ on the street by a cop? Who cares- you’re still misbehaving, in my opinion.

Put another way (which I think I’ve said before) if you are stupid enough to engage in what is deemed as criminal activity on the roads - you are still breaking the law and it’s fair game if you get caught. Whether you’re being egged on or not by a cop is just a technicality.

You have the choice of ignoring the behaviour of the other driver- cop or not- it seriously should not matter.

We all have free will and hopefully some judgement- we should exercise it.

Apparently it’s what makes us different from all the other animals.

[scathing]

However, the friends and family of Alan and Judith Howle now have a very good understanding of this topic.

No, they don't.

They have an emotional experience with the situation which colours their judgement. Its just like people who are victims of crime calling for the death penalty; understandable given their experiences but otherwise anathema to "Australian values".

Calls for the death penalty are generally ignored, so should support for entrapment.

It should be decided on by someone with a level head, maturity, and a good deal of distance between themselves and the topic. That way a rational and lucid decision can be made.

And like them, I wouldn't care if someone stopped the "alleged" idiot/s well before they got to the point of harming someone- the method of catching them is in my opinion a technicality.

Technicalities separate justice from vigilantism. I realise, with our current War on Terror, that due process is a dirty word but there was once a time when people had principles.

I guess I'm just old fashioned in expecting that people still do.

[scathing]

Put another way (which I think I’ve said before) if you are stupid enough to engage in what is deemed as criminal activity on the roads - you are still breaking the law and it’s fair game if you get caught. Whether you’re being egged on or not by a cop is just a technicality.

The cop is also technically breaking the law in inciting a street race (since both parties are generally responsible), yet they are not held accountable.

I realise that cops are given "elevated" legal rights, in the course of their duties (detention, carrying firearms, etc) but those are only to be used to stop or prevent crime.

If a cop was to speed and drive in a manner otherwise considered dangerous to chase down the two Commodore drivers and attempt to pull them over, then that's fair enough. Kidnap and detain them (i.e. arrest) based on established rules of evidence? That's great.

But in the situations that started this thread, they're not stopping or preventing a crime. They are, in actual fact, instigating a crime....the complete opposite of their purported role. The other driver wasn't speeding or about to speed, and it was not until the cop incites it that it occurs.

Edited August 2, 2007 by scathing

[evesdropping]

A hypothetical question…

What do you reckon the family of that couple killed in the incident earlier this week in Western Sydney- "allegedly" as a result of one or more persons street racing- think of this topic?

I have no in depth knowledge of this case- other than what I have read & researched in the last few days.

However, the friends and family of Alan and Judith Howle now have a very good understanding of this topic. And like them, I wouldn't care if someone stopped the "alleged" idiot/s well before they got to the point of harming someone- the method of catching them is in my opinion a technicality.

You decide how you act and react on the roads- no one else.

Is it more or less dangerous to misbehave when you’re challenged to a ‘race’ on the street by a cop? Who cares- you’re still misbehaving, in my opinion.

Put another way (which I think I’ve said before) if you are stupid enough to engage in what is deemed as criminal activity on the roads - you are still breaking the law and it’s fair game if you get caught. Whether you’re being egged on or not by a cop is just a technicality.

You have the choice of ignoring the behaviour of the other driver- cop or not- it seriously should not matter.

We all have free will and hopefully some judgement- we should exercise it.

Apparently it’s what makes us different from all the other animals.

Take the recent situation as mentioned above,

This does indeed show the potential greusome consequences of street racing.

Hypothetical question....

If the accident occured as a result of a street race that was initiated by an undercover policeman, what do you think the family of the couple killed would think of this topic?

Although a majority of the time an accident won't occur due to a police induced street race, there is always a possibility that it could all turn pear shaped, just like any other street race.

[T04GTR]

A week ago on saturday night i was driving towards the city on southern cross drive. I saw a commodore flying up to me way faster than 80 and then overtook me and stopped in front of me at the traffic lights. As it initially passed me i assumed it was an undercover car as it was that blue colour like all of them, it had the steel wheels etc. Then when it pulled up in front i saw it had a red p-plate on the rear window so assumed it was just another p plater hoon trying to get a response from me.

Later that night as i was turning onto george st, i saw the same car again front on, it had a p plate on the front window as well, and there were COPS INSIDE! it was kind of funny as i was staring at them with eyes wide open and they were staring back as in 'hey its them again!' lol.

Anyway are police allowed to do that? Anyone seen it before? I wanted to take a picture but thought they might get annoyed!

well as far as im concerned. if i was a truckie they be in the river. why cant they just f**k off and leave us alone. we must have "stupid" written across our forred or something.

[T04GTR]

oh.. and yeah. old people just dont look before pulling out into traffic. they are a danger. and this is why they need to sit there licence every year. my sympathys to the familiys but i can just imagine what happened....

[d00dz]

Just wondering..

Hypothically...

If you're at the lights and lets say you dont know the person asking you to "race" is an undercover cop. They wind down their window you do this also, they ask you "wanna race" you say "YES HELL YES SURE". Then when the lights change you dont, all you do is just ignore it and drive normally.

Im always getting people asking me this, I just ignore them, but wonder what would happen if you say yes and u dont do it.

What if anything would happen? Im thinking nothing? Because you said you would do it but you havent actually done it. Innocent untill proven guilty?

[FATAZZ]

nice post doodz.

i been told that you cant swear at police officers,but if they havent yet

announced their cops or shown a badge,can i yell abuse at them and not be charged?

in regards to an undercover cop egging me on at the lights.

[JUN`R32]

nice topic

i agree with the oldies pulling out of a street doing prob 5kph and thinking the "younger" kids should stop, IF this was the case in the accident i would b a lil p off if this happened to me...

this has happened but i wasn't racing, doing 50kph and it still annoyed me

That said stupid morons racing on that road is just totally phukd up an irresponsible.

so i hope they do face jail time, going at those speeds on a public road is asking for an accident, take it to a damn track

seems like commodore/ford drivers are worse than import tuners ??????

I am not 100% sure on this,

In aus there is no such thing as the entrapment law unlike the usa.

So if you ask a suspected under cover, and u ask him are you a cop he can say no im not and still bust you if you then race.

where as in the us the cop must answer yes i am a cop and if he doesnt and then arrests you the charges will not stick

I am not sure if this is true so please DO NOT try this one out if you do come across a under cover

[DECIM8]

Just wondering..

Hypothically...

If you're at the lights and lets say you dont know the person asking you to "race" is an undercover cop. They wind down their window you do this also, they ask you "wanna race" you say "YES HELL YES SURE". Then when the lights change you dont, all you do is just ignore it and drive normally.

Im always getting people asking me this, I just ignore them, but wonder what would happen if you say yes and u dont do it.

What if anything would happen? Im thinking nothing? Because you said you would do it but you havent actually done it. Innocent untill proven guilty?

Yeah do it all the time, How much of a buzz is reving your engine and seeing the guy next to you launch out of the gates away from you yet you just roll along and away .. he gets a buzz hes so in time with his gear changes he just thinks he winning... shit funny tho .. cause he really would have no chance:D

And incorrect entrapment is illegal in australia too and police must answer yes to a direct question such as are you a police officer, its the wording which can get you ..

And the people who died unfortunate as it may be as idiots .. who in their right mind turns infront of two obviously speeding cars? you obviously turn behind them and hit boost straight away and start the flashers .. nothing like fun hey

And you can swear as much as you like at a officer of the law, however if they take offence to it or see it effects others around or they feel abused by such treatment you can be changed.

Edited August 3, 2007 by DECIM8

[d00dz]

OK here is another one..

You're are the lights... 60k Zone..

You are stationary at the lights, when it changes you zoom ahead and when it gets before 60k on the speedo, say 50, you slow down. Is that "Street racing". ? lol You're not even speeding, just accelerating fast.

That actually reminds me of that Ali G movie where they are in the streets and the two small cars do this and they get to 40k and keep it at 40k lol

[JDSracing]

OK here is another one..

You're are the lights... 60k Zone..

You are stationary at the lights, when it changes you zoom ahead and when it gets before 60k on the speedo, say 50, you slow down. Is that "Street racing". ? lol You're not even speeding, just accelerating fast.

That actually reminds me of that Ali G movie where they are in the streets and the two small cars do this and they get to 40k and keep it at 40k lol

Yes I got my car impounded years ago for that, at no point in time did I go over the speed limit, it was from a set of lights in a 90 zone, went flat out to 90, stopped there.. next thing you know there was a tow truck taking my car away.

[Abo Bob]

This is where the hoon laws are unfair. It's up to the cop that sees you to decide if you are racing or not, even if you don't exceed the speed limit they can get you.

Old people often get into accidents because they have trouble estimating the speed on oncoming traffic. I think in the abovementioned case it's quite likely that a much younger person would have noticed the speed of the cars approaching and not pulled out. That said, it gives no excuse to the dickheads that were racing. It's their fault entirely.

This:

If the accident occured as a result of a street race that was initiated by an undercover policeman, what do you think the family of the couple killed would think of this topic?

is the most relevant statement with regards to the baiting being talked about. It is sometimes said that the difference between a criminal and a non criminal is opportunity. If I put a cold beer on my front fence someone will take it. If it's on my front porch, it's a good chance of being taken. If it's behind a locked door it's probably safe. If a copper incites a race he is creating an opportunity that would not otherwise have existed, thus potentially turning a non criminal into a criminal.

[Yawn]

What if an undercover cop car decides to fire you up by tailgating you and then cutting you off?

What if you then speed up to catch up to him to give him a piece of your mind, without breaking the speed limit but flat out to it?

What if he then decides you're racing and impounds your car?

Who's right and wrong then?

Probably both.

Just sayin'

Edited August 3, 2007 by Yawn

[EDSC]

i wonder is it from NSW...but enjoy...

#not taken by me, i'm jus copy n paste

[DECIM8]

Yeap if you launch it against another car and create a "race" then they can pin you. If you launch it by yourself at the lights they cant technically get you for anything but if you got any wheel spin etc you'll be in trouble.

And yes cops do tail gate and cut you off however unless you have footage how would you proove that? they are the law enforcer .. If you speed up to give him a peice of your mind that road rage another offence.

[T04GTR]

at the end of the day its a matter of whether they want to bust you or not. if they do thats final. end of story unless you have 10k to fight it in a court.