Is There A Problem With Whiteline Kit Kca336?

[djr81]

My R32 has a KCA 336 kit fitted to the front suspension. For the SECOND time the rear of the two yellow bushes on the upper, outer pivot point has failed (on both sides this time). On this occasion it was after only about 600kms of travel plus maybe 16 or so laps of the local track. During that time I don't believe the suspension hit the bump stops once & I certainly stayed well away from the kerbs at the track. I have wound out most of the caster, leaving it near stock.

Has any one else encountered the same issue?

Can anyone offer a solution other than

1. Buying a whole new kit (Whiteline won't sell components)

2. Machining up a bush from harder materials.

As an aside I would recommend to anyone who has the kit fitted that they check the state of their bushes....

Edited September 21, 2006 by djr81

[Roy]

Im on my 3rd kit of bushes at the moment. And guess what? At Sandown on the weekend under heavy cornering the tell tale binding/bang/clunck is back. This is the second Whiteline kit, the other kit was by Nolathance (Red bushes)

I am giving up on bushes in the front end. I have formed the opinion that they suck and will stuff around with some adjustable arms until im happy

Is it possible Whiteline have faulted a little bit of late with quality of their bolt on kits? Possibly. Take it up with them and if they are happy to help work through the problem then great. I get the feeling that bushes just dont stand up well to the heat and loads of track work. Hell this last set i was using plenty of lube on them

Personally since they stopped selling direct to the public, and they typically dont even answer technical enquiries when you call them direct, instead send you off to Autobarn or another retailer...i fear they have lost the plot a little. Hell even the holes on their swaybars i purchased recently had to be drilled out to fit the bolt thru. Let alone the bush being the right size for the swaybars brackets. Not a big thing i know. But pretty sh1thouse quality control all the same

[Beer Baron]

mmm interesting. I have midori upper arms in the GTR and after 2 weeks (minimal kms - maybe 400) and one track day they are starting to creak and squeak. I was going to rip them out and whack in the stock arms with bush kits but now I'm thinking maybe I'll just put a grease nipple on these ones and keep greasing them up once a month. maybe I can get the bearings teflong coated or something. or even the bolts.

[GTRgeoff]

R32 uppers are a known problem when pulling extra castor in. I'm certain SK has acknowledged and discussed this before.

Must be time someone put together a decent rose joint setup with the expensive bushes and weather seals for these ancient old girls jsu to give them some movement for castor.

[GTRgeoff]

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[djr81]

R32 uppers are a known problem when pulling extra castor in. I'm certain SK has acknowledged and discussed this before.

Must be time someone put together a decent rose joint setup with the expensive bushes and weather seals for these ancient old girls jsu to give them some movement for castor.

I understand the stress extra caster puts on this upper joint - which is why I got rid of it. The bush still failed.

[Beer Baron]

hmm, that's why i went with the midori type one as you can let it rotate a little so that should take 'some' of the stress out. plus as it kind of looks like this:

._

I I

you can intall it like this:

I_

....I

so the upright is already cranked back a bit giving you some caster straight off the bat.

edit: dots are there just to keep the thingys in place.

2nd edit:

this pic should help explain it. you can flip one end 180 degrees.

[Sydneykid]

The issue with R32’s chewing out bushes in the front upper control arms is a known problem, hence why Nissan changed to the wide spaced inner pivot joints on R33’s and R34’s.

As a few of you know, I am currently testing a revised camber kit for the front of R32’s. The revision is to allow more camber adjustment by utilising an offset crush tube in both the inner and outer joints. The normal camber kit only has an offset crush tube on the outer joint.

As well as allowing more camber adjustment, less negative camber for excessively lowered road cars and more for circuit cars, it will add more compliance into the upper arm inner pivot joints. This should noticeably decrease the propensity for the (current) low compliance inner bush to be chewed out by the distortion caused by the R32 geometry. Which (as a couple of you have found out) is exacerbated by increased camber and (mostly) caster.

The off the shelf KCA336 kit contains both alloy and poly bushes for use in the inner pivot point, refer picture following;

What I am testing uses full polyurethane bushes (no alloy) in the inner pivot point,.with an offset crush tube for adjustment This will allow capacity for more of the inbuilt distortion (on suspension movement) to be absorbed by the thicker shanking on the bush. Following is a picture of a Nismo upper control arm with the adjustable bushes installed in the inner and outer joints.

Post picture here

I have only just started road testing, so it is early days yet. I will also be carrying out some circuit testing in the R32GTST. If it stands up to that punishment then I will be offering the upgrade for those that want/need it. More updates will be posted as they occur.

cheers

PS; it is worth mentioning at this time that the Group Buy price on the KCA336 (for R32’s) and KCA348 (for R33’s, R34’s and Stageas) has been reduced from $272 to $183. This maintains the 15% discount on the Whiteline retail price (20% if the order is over $1K).

Edited September 21, 2006 by Sydneykid

[djr81]

The issue with R32’s chewing out bushes in the front upper control arms is a known problem, hence why Nissan changed to the wide spaced inner pivot joints on R33’s and R34’s.

As a few of you know, I am currently testing a revised camber kit for the front of R32’s. The revision is to allow more camber adjustment by utilising an offset crush tube in both the inner and outer joints. The normal camber kit only has an offset crush tube on the outer joint.

As well as allowing more camber adjustment, less negative camber for excessively lowered road cars and more for circuit cars, it will add more compliance into the upper arm inner pivot joints. This should noticeably decrease the propensity for the (current) low compliance inner bush to be chewed out by the distortion caused by the R32 geometry. Which (as a couple of you have found out) is exacerbated by increased camber and (mostly) caster.

The off the shelf KCA336 kit contains both alloy and poly bushes for use in the inner pivot point, refer picture following;

What I am testing uses full polyurethane bushes (no alloy) in the inner pivot point,.with an offset crush tube for adjustment This will allow capacity for more of the inbuilt distortion (on suspension movement) to be absorbed by the thicker shanking on the bush. Following is a picture of a Nismo upper control arm with the adjustable bushes installed in the inner and outer joints.

Post picture here

I have only just started road testing, so it is early days yet. I will also be carrying out some circuit testing in the R32GTST. If it stands up to that punishment then I will be offering the upgrade for those that want/need it. More updates will be posted as they occur.

cheers

PS; it is worth mentioning at this time that the Group Buy price on the KCA336 (for R32’s) and KCA348 (for R33’s, R34’s and Stageas) has been reduced from $272 to $183. This maintains the 15% discount on the Whiteline retail price (20% if the order is over $1K).

Hmm, a few points, questions.

The OUTER bushes failed on my GT-R - three in total (of 4 possible). The inner ones are fine.

The kit shown is different to those I have previously had. Most noticeably the red (nolathane?) inner bushes in place of the normal yellow stuff Whiteline supply.

Lastly, Gary can you send me a PM about the development kit. I assume it is to be the same as the one I paid for back in about June/July.

[Beer Baron]

gary, does that mean that you can choose to use either the poly bush or the alloy one?

[Sydneykid]

Hmm, a few points, questions.

The OUTER bushes failed on my GT-R - three in total (of 4 possible). The inner ones are fine.

The kit shown is different to those I have previously had. Most noticeably the red (nolathane?) inner bushes in place of the normal yellow stuff Whiteline supply.

Lastly, Gary can you send me a PM about the development kit. I assume it is to be the same as the one I paid for back in about June/July.

Before I go any further I should point out that there are hundreds of R32’s out there that have had KCA336 kits in them for many years and not had a problem. The extreme uses we put or cars to (lots of camber, plenty of caster, sticky tyres, good shocks and springs, stabiliser bars and high G forces etc) just accentuates what is a known problem with Nissan’s R32 design.

Moving on to your questions;

Yep, mostly it is the inner bush that fails first, but not always. Sometimes both inner and outers fail together. The bush failures are due to the lack of compliance of the inner bush, because of the alloy spacer it is too thin. What I am testing replaces the alloy spacer and the thin bush with a thicker bush with a wider shank that increases the compliance ie; allows for more distortion before ripping into the polyurethane.

I am testing a range of polyurethane hardness (duro) bushes. There is a balance required between compliance to prevent premature wear and stiffness to retain the geometry. I am working in the usual range of 70 to 95 duro.

Sometimes the moulder does the bushes in red sometimes in yellow, it's just a colour.

No problem, you money is safe, but Whiteline won’t release the inner parts until I have tested them. Unfortunately that meant a delay, as I have to test the various polyurethane formulas. I have 2 more sets to test and I only have one R32, so it will take time.

cheers

Edited September 21, 2006 by Sydneykid

[Sydneykid]

gary, does that mean that you can choose to use either the poly bush or the alloy one?

What I am working on is;

1. a new kit with the current outer offset crush tube and the "new" inner bush and offset crush tube

2. a "upgrade" kit with just the "new" inner bush and offset crush tube for guys who want more adjustment and already have a KCA336 kit

3. retaining the current KCA336 kit for the guys that don't need the extra camber adjustment

Those are my intentions, but (as with all products) they will have to be approved by Whiteline.

cheers

Edited September 21, 2006 by Sydneykid

[Roy]

Have to say Sydneykid...you are the screaming voice of reason for Whiteline...you answer the questions and provide the info you can no longer get about their gear... thanks for going to all the trouble you do to give us credible info

[djr81]

These are the bushes that came off my car. Both of the rear outers failed. My best guess is that they are insufficiently stiff & when you load the suspension up the longitudinal load (shear as seen at the bush) is too much for them.

The middle photo of the three shows how the bush should look.

Question: What hardness are the current bushes?

Edited October 9, 2006 by djr81

[Sydneykid]

These are the bushes that came off my car. Both of the rear outers failed. My best guess is that they are insufficiently stiff & when you brake hard the longitudinal load (shear as seen at the bush) is too much for them.

The middle photo of the three shows how the bush should look.

Question: What hardness are the current bushes?

Thanks for the photos, I will use them if it’s OK with you.

Looks like typical "caster" induced wear on the outer bush. When we pull on lots of caster, the upper control arm inner bush (UCAIB) doesn’t allow sufficient distortion because of the limited amount of polyurethane. ie; the alloy bush doesn’t leave enough diameter inside the upper control arm for the polyurethane bush.

Hence, almost the entire amount of “distortion” has to be carried by the upper control arm outer bush (UCAOB). This places excessive twisting loads on the UCAOB and after a few thousand ups and downs (of the suspension) it looses its elasticity (memory) and no longer returns to its original moulded shape.

What I am testing (no alloy in the UCAIB) is designed to basically spread the “distortion” over the 4 bushes, rather than have just one bush take all of the load.

From memory the current bushes are 80-85 duro. As usual it’s a compromise, you want higher duro to retain the static settings (camber and caster) under load. At the same time you want lower duro to allow for the misalignment caused by the additional caster. The trick (reason for the testing) is to find the appropriate compromise.

cheers

[djr81]

Gary,

You are more than welcome to the photos.

If I use the spare pair of offset crush tubes & machine myself up a new inner bush to match the profile of the existing outer crush tube (on the inner arm), will that replicate what you have in your kit?

Edited October 9, 2006 by djr81

[djr81]

Mmm, think I will get myself some Noltec bushes & bore out the outer one to fit the camber adjustment pin. They look to be better than the whiteline kit because they have collars on them...

[Beer Baron]

what's the damage on the noltec ones? and I assume they are jsut replacement bushes, so no adjustment unless you mod them to accept the offset tube in the middle?

[djr81]

Bout half the retail for the Whiteline kit $166.

I was going to mod them (bore them out) to fit the whiteline inner pins, otherwise, yeah you don't get adjustment.

[Sydneykid]

If you haven’t machined polyurethane before a couple of tips. Treat it like wood, not metal. Get in and rapidly lathe it to the size you want, don’t dilly dally, otherwise it will overheat and start melting onto the cutting tool. Make absolutely sure that you know your exact dimensions before you start, don’t machine > measure > machine some more. Get it done with a sharp tool, very fast.

cheers

PS; I did ask Greg (Nolan) for a set to test, but they never seem ot have any in stock, so order well in advance.