Banning Performance Cars From P Platers = More Deaths

[mad082]

an adaption of the nra slogan "cars don't kill people, people kill people"

letting people make 7 or 8 mistake in half an hour and still get their licence is the problem. it uesd to be 3. why don't we go back to that system?

[thorpe84]

yeah, alot of people cant drive for shit....like my gf, anyway dont you hate it when c**ts change lanes without using indicators

[scathing]

"Someone gets kicked in the balls" = 17 - 20 year olds? So the Government has somehow 'killed' that extra 37% because of a kneejerk reaction? Your comment sounds like your blaming the laws.

Laws are just words written on a piece of paper. A conceptual tool. And like any other tool, lacking sentience, or even life, they cannot be blamed for anything.

I'm blaming the complete lack of foresight, understanding, and actual care of the people who came up with those laws. The people are meant to have the cognitive power to create and wield said tools are the ones to blame.

The local tabloid stirs up the blood of the plebs with their moneymaking "P platers Gone Wild" articles (as if P-platers driving cars quickly is some new thing that the same plebs weren't up to themselves back when they were young), and so the government feels the need to do something, and quickly. That something may not actually achieve anything, but politics is perception after all.

So the government just decides to ban young drivers from Volvo S40T's, Saab 93's, and Mercedes Benz C200K's (all entry model cars with less power and more weight than a RenaultSport Clio) because its "for the children".

People will always kill themselves in cars. Whether it be a "genuine" accident, suicide, or acting like a tool and having an "off". You can't do anything about the first two. The best you can do is mitigate the incidence of the last as much as possible.

What I'm saying is that there is no single solution. I am all for restricting P platers. I think we should ban all cars below a certain NCAP or ANCAP ratings from being made street legal.

All cars past a certain age should be banned (you can create a "Historic" plate class, where the vehicle is only allowed on the road occasionally like rally plates, for culturally significant collectors items), unless they can pass modern crash testing and hit modern targets for stopping and handling. Clearing a car for rego should be stricter and more heavily enforced, and mechanics who dodgy those reports should be banned from doing business.

New drivers should be given a more in-depth driver training course before being granted the ability to drive (driver training stops being "advanced" when it becomes "standard"). It should cover theory, practical and attitude. The testing should also be more stringent.

Existing drivers should be retested before their license is renewed.

Speed cameras etc should be put in genuine black spots, and the monies gained from it and dangerous driving related infringements should be put into a trust for crash victims, not for the general expenditure by the government. Not even for road repairs, because then the government will "need" money to come in from speed cameras. No accidents, no need for money in the trust.

There's probably more we can do, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

[Midol]

How old is too old though?

Just make safety certs harder to get. From memory in NZ (used to live there) warrant of fitness's were hard to get, everything had to work. Here I got my safety cert with no friggin' brake lights! (Dad did it all, I just picked it up. I rewired them immediatly though.)

[Munna1]

makes the car too rigid. if you hit the cage with your head you're a goner. The only time a cage would be worthwhile is if you wore a helmet and had a racing seat and racing harness and were tightly strapped in. Which isn't going to happen on the street.

fair enough

[Roy]

fair enough

Actually, the guidelines for cages are that your head ust be a certain distance from it, it b padded. Your head would be better hitting it then the glass or A/B Pillar...anyway, if your head hits the cage then there your seat has failed, the tensioners in the belt are stuffed or its not a great cage to start with

[merlin6014]

- I dislike the "Ban low performance drivers not high perfromance cars" quote as it implies that owning a high perfromance car makes you a high performance driver which most of us know is BS.

- Secondly a few people are harping on about how Skylines have more safety features than Commodores. WTF? I am no Commodore lover but a high powered RWD Skyline of which the majority are now 15 years old, with no ESP, Traction Control, airbags, ABS or rigid current crash testing regimes is, I am afraid to say, not safer than your average Commodore/ Falcon which has all of these features. The only safety feature the Skyline has is lower weight and bigger brakes therefore faster stopping power.

- The solution? I agree with the power limits set by the RTA for P platers - Bike riders have had these restrictions for years and they are proven to work. What I would like to see is compulsary proffesional RTA training for L platers at an RTA testing centre, none of this mum will teach me to drive and pass on all her bad habits caper that currently takes place.

[GT-R32]

Go the tabloid fueled, knee jerk, fear based government policy. Go you good thing.

[gts-4 dreamer]

i agree with the majority merlin said, just 1 stickler

depending on model of skyline and commodore, year for year id say the japs were first with the goodies but i have no clue what thier actual crash testing requirements are.

dual airbags, abs, traction control (via active lsd, lacks straight line but definetly cornering) these are in my 33t, hmmm, that would be interesting...

anyone ever done a "safety" line vs domestic market comparison ?

what had what test requirements in development ? which got what safety feature when ?

I'd be interested in that, not that i particularly give a shite but i rem getting the old lady of my back with a completely un researched statement about they are equal to domestic market of the period less side intrusion bars

[Sydneykid]

Some observations;

I taught my kids how to DRIVE.

The professional instructors then taught them how to pass the test.

I have seen no evidence that sending Learners to professional instructors makes them better drivers.

I get really peeed of with newspaper articles that quote lots of STATISTICS but no FACTS. So 26 people were killed, HOW? WHY? WHEN? WHERE? They never provide enough information for us to make a judgement. The only solid data that is supplied supports their view (of course).

An example “Only one 17- to 20-year-oldwas killed while driving at less than 60km/h this year?

Well how many at 61 kph? What about 62 kph?.

So I get into my own data analysis………by doing the calculations myself.

“Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) data shows 14 of the 26 P-plate drivers killed died in accidents that involved speeds above the legal limit for provisional drivers”

That means 14 people were killed at more than 80-90 kph. Obviously they ignored the speed limiting. So the speed limiting actually didn‘t help them at all, they still exceeded it.

Conversely that means 11 people were killed at between 60 and 80/90 kph. So the speed limiting didn‘t help them either, they died at speeds under it anyway

Even driving at less than 60 kph won’t help you.

So the “statistics” prove that limiting P platers to 80/90 kph doesn’t work. Since it doesn’t work we should get rid of it

I just love this statistic being thrown at me year after year…..

“Young drivers hold 15 per cent of licences but are involved in 36 per cent of road fatalities”

Sure, BUT the “young drivers” in my family drive 300% more k’s per year than I do. SO they are in fact less likely to have an accident based on K’s travelled.

The power of numbers? No, the power of using those numbers to prove whatever I want you to believe.

cheers

[gts4diehard]

Its like any political response they want one solution for a complex problem.

Safer cars and better skilled drivers are all we can really do.

Skylines probably aren't as safe if someone else hits you but if you can get out of the way they will do a better job than a family car - if you've got the skills.

Most important skills I learnt when I was starting out was to anticipate the situation and to handle a slide, its something that needs to become automatic -

Rather than just limit power for P platers maybe there should be a specification on the suspension and braking. Better handling and brakes to give the learner a better chance and help compensate for the lack of experience when shit happens might be helpful.

e.g. a GTR with an RB20E! handling and braking and not too much performance.

[TRUBLSM]

i think the RB20DE engines are the safest for the p platers, i have one and i tell you what, you can A. still have fun. B. not too powerful.. i'm enjoying it..i also have the bigger brakes and better handling (5 stud conversion) and my car is the perfect p platers car

[TRUBLSM]

I have seen no evidence that sending Learners to professional instructors makes them better drivers.

Dude, I passed my P's test first go and got 100% WITHOUT and instructor or professional lesson, it was all thanks to my father building my confidence and making me a better drive.. so i 100% support fathers teaching their kids rather then sending them to professional schools

[dangerous_daveo]

Dude, I passed my P's test first go and got 100% WITHOUT and instructor or professional lesson, it was all thanks to my father building my confidence and making me a better drive.. so i 100% support fathers teaching their kids rather then sending them to professional schools

I dont. Some might do ok. But time after time after time we have 1 day to get people out of their bad habits their fathers teach them. One father even said 'defencive driving courses teach you nothing'.

What Gary is saying is, passing the test is compleatly different to being able to safely drive a car.

[scathing]

- I dislike the "Ban low performance drivers not high perfromance cars" quote as it implies that owning a high perfromance car makes you a high performance driver which most of us know is BS.

No, it doesn't. It implies that owning a high performance car has nothing to do with the performance of the driver.

Just because you can afford a Porsche Cayman (or insert other car lauded for being one of the best handling road cars on the market) doesn't mean you can drive one. But just because you can afford a Cayman, it doesn't mean you can't drive it either. So if you have to blanket ban one of the two (since its so difficult to match a car with a driver of its equal) do you ban the Porsche, or the guy that can't drive it?

[GTRgeoff]

Interesting to see SK posting in such a discussion, and I agree with everything you say there mate.

I concentrate a lot on peoples perceptions and attitudes when training drivers, especially heavy vehicles. I've also been very active with a national road safety program called Roadsense where I've done some human factors engineering work to demonstrate the cost of forcing drivers to concentrate on their speedos rather than the road and teaching them to properly judge the appropriate situational speed.

Also, without being sexist, some of the toughest discussions I've had are with young females who believe they are safe drivers because they never, ever exceed the speed limit, but they violently argue and refuse to accept that they can't do the limit in bad weather. Their argument is that surely, because the government has decreed some arbitrary number as the safe speed it is suitable for all situations.

Is it just me or is this a growing perception in young drivers that the limit is safe regardles of conditions? Perhaps there is a developing attitude that we will all be safe as long as they don't speed, fuelled by the government propaganda rather than real common sense. It certainly doesn't help when Monash Uni is supporting it (to the tune of big bucks of government support) and many other academic institutions don't.

[predator]

fixed speed limits encourage b.s. further numbers to justify them.

Monash Uni's transport "safety" department or whatever it should be nuked. It is interesting the massive influence they have on the roads down there in VIC, as opposed to NSW and QLD where people generally travel a fair bit quicker. But at the end of the day there is little to no difference per head of population the road toll across all age groups whether you have a nazi state or not.

I wouldn't say QLD'ers are good drivers at all (in fact very poor), however the road toll isn't massive here.. and the population isn't *that* much smaller than VIC. Distance? Older population? Less rain? Less traffic lights? We can even get into the recent migrants argument. There is more to it than simply speed limits, and fast cars.

[Mandingo]

QLD is up the shit too, We get Hi-po bans for P Platers next year.

Not stopping me doing RB30DETT but

When I went for my licence my instructor was telling me about how in germany it can cost upwards or $1000 to get your licence. And it goes over everything including basic tyre change etc. would sort out the shit.

Seems we are just sooo far behind.

Edited September 28, 2006 by Flipmo

[dangerous_daveo]

Well some European contrys even have bans for driving while taking legal drugs (ie medication). You can cop some serious fines and suspensions if you get caught. That said they do have very clear warnings on the packaging. We will just never catch up with them hey.

[Roy]

LOL...those statistis where they werent speeding? Does that clarify what they were doing at the time. Losing it coming out of a 55km/h signposted corner in an 80km/h highway is possible...and technically not speeding...though i agree the numbers tell you what the powers want them to say.

Another interesting point. Some may have read about the horrible accident the other day in Vic. Well i had met the couple and their horrible fate wasnt an experience thing, he was an experienced rally driver/motorsport nut who was on older gent...and the wing nuts govt essentially played a hand in their deaths by ignoring a blatantly dangerous intersection. All the money they get from fines, registration etc and they didnt deem it necessary to fix the worst example of an intersection i have ever seen. Drivers behaving responsibly? How about politicians and our elected representatives serve the public interest by using that money to lift the std of raods and signage...i bet members live in areas with nice roads that are safely sign posted

So young folk right themselves off, experienced, responsible ppl still get caught out by poor roads and signage...you cant win. All you can do is be alert and hope you get enjoy those last few years with your 5th wife who is 45 years younger then you