little rant (zoom)

[fatz]

just read the latest zoom number 63

page 67

tech file on braking buy martin donnon

makes some valid points (note some... note many)

just bringing attention to the second last paragraph ......... WTF

this article if indirectly talking about driving at the track

"forget about heal and toeing" .... "downshifting under brakes forces the stoppers to slowdown the drivetrain"

and the last parragrph is just pure gold

"the answer then is to do all your braking with your foot on the clutch, and then pop the box into the rigt gear just before the turn in point. Simple hey."

i dont know if this is the same guy but on one of the HPI videos there is a few "hot laps" in a r34 gtt around wakefield... clearly the driver has NFI and is compression loking the tyres eveytime he enters a corner (due to a lack of heal toe work)

its just that many young people read (articles) an watch these videos and there driving is influenced by these apparent experts and there comments.

i freely admit to being a hella crap driver but dont going around teachig bad habbit on a regular basis

my little brother watched this video with me, and he thought the drining shown was exellent. took me 20 minutes to explain to him the the bad points.

i will find out the vid number so everyone can have a cringe at the driving displayed

pete

[Doctor]

And can you hurry about it?

just kidding fatz

[Silver-Arrowz]

Someone needs driver training.

[Roy]

Yeh was surprised to see Ben Ellis locking tyres on downshifts going back to 2nd for turn 1 at Wakefield.

I cant really poke fun at other drivres, but there would seem to be something majorly wrong with that school of thought.

Dosnt the brake booster use manifold vacuum to assist the master cylinder in braking, if you dump in the clutch wont that lessen the brake pressure and performance.

[fatz]

diffrent guy my bad

but still painful to watch and read

[Greg]

lol martin donnon is on these forums i wonder if he will reply...

[Duncan]

Originally posted by Roy

Yeh was surprised to see Ben Ellis locking tyres on downshifts going back to 2nd for turn 1 at Wakefield.

And why would you need 2nd gear for turn 1 :confused: another bad track habit is too low a gear for corners...

It is a shame if bad habits like that are being passed around through these magazines, there's already too many people out there who's car is faster than their abilities....

[funkymonkey]

pm him, would be interesting to see what he has to say

[Roy]

And why would you need 2nd gear for turn 1  another bad track habit is too low a gear for corners...

Yeh maybe, but until your familiar with a track sometimes gear selection is a bit tricky. That said turn 1 is too fast for 2nd gear in my car.

I remember one day at Wakefield last year when the silver GTR in the latest Zoom was on the track with me. Nice car but rolling onto the straight in 4th gear, realises its the straight so kicks it back to 3rd maybe 2nd and blazes past me after i drove up the inside of him on the exit of the corner in my little GTSt.

So then thru turn 1 come flying up his clapper, only to draw alongside him and hear the thing downchange again, and again pull away from me like im standing still:(

Rolling thru corner in too high a gear is even worse in my books, it was funny when i finally got past and pulled away... go the power of the stocka GTSt. :bahaha:

[fatz]

hes on this forum

lol

hope he comes to on of the trak days in the future. the more you practic the better you get.

and wakefield turn 2 should be taken in third AND OR REVERSE

[Duncan]

Pete, I'm begining to wonder if you might be wrong about using reverse...

Reverse Helis sucked on the skid pan, 3rd would be better than reverse for wakefield, and I'm even beginning to think reverse drag racing isn't a great idea.

[Greg]

his user name is "Martin Donnon" if u want to pm him

[Martin Donnon]

Watch in-car camera with someone like Mark Skaife. He will often brake, while shifting 6th to 2nd. The concept behind avoiding compression lock is to put the car in gear at the correct speed.

If you travel along in gear and take your foot off the throttle, whats going to slow you down faster the drag of the crankshaft, or the brakes? In fact regardless of gear, the brakes will ALWAYS slow you down faster. By rowing the stick into a corner all you do is make the brakes slow down the engine as well as the car. Stupid really, and capable of ruining your day quickly in a car like an R32GTR where the brakes are marginal.

Its not a natural technique though, while downshifting one by one is. As I wrote in the column, go give the test a try, and you will begin to understand the benefits. Try the technique, enter some motorsport events, and use it in the real world. Believe it or not, this is the way that most pros stop.

[Roy]

I think what you have posted reads a little different to the article, depite intending to have the same meaning.

When im at the track i often go 5th - 3rd - 2nd, simplifies things. How do you engage the gear at the correct speed, are you saying road speed, or engine speed. I recall your article said brake with your foot on the clutch, you still need to heel / toe to match engine speed to road speed dont you???

So sooner or later you have to heel/toe to match revs to road speed, say at end of the straight at Wakefield or turn 2 at eastern creek, i will do 75-80% of my braking in 5th gear , then when im getting close to what i want for my corner speed ill go 5th-3rd, still leaving plenty of time to settle the car before turning in.

Is this in line with what your saying???

[cereal]

I think he's saying that by just stomping on the clutch you can shift from 5th/6th all the way down to 2nd in one shift whilst braking. You just keep the clutch in until you're travelling at a 2nd gear speed.

Well at least that's the way I'm reading it. But the problem with this is that the pros do it because they can replace anything on their car after one race....Like how the rally cars use anti-lag. No one has anti-lag on the street because they can't afford to replace their turbo every 3000kms.....

[Roy]

... is tht right, as i dont see the pros in any form of motorsport coming inot braking areas with the clutch pedal to the firewall for a period of seconds, and then when thay have wiped off say 80kms of road speed pluck the gear they are after.

Shift from 6th, woops GTSt remember, 5th straight to 2nd yes, but braking with the car in a gear, not free wheeling effectively in neutral.

[fatz]

i c m skaife shifting down the gears under brakeing, only on tracks like bathurst do they do the 6th to 2nd, maybe due wanting to save the clutch over a 1000k race.

pete

[2rismo]

DISCLAIMER: The assumptions made below are based upon my VIEWING of motorsport events for the last 20+ years, mostly on the telly.

In car cameras, noises made and actions performed by, lets say, V8 supercars (as i think that was the example made) seem to indicate that the professional drivers do NOT brake into the corner with their foot solidly on the clutch, selecting the appropriate ratio, not heel-toeing then powering out.

Think that made sense :confused:

Rather, they down shift whilst braking for the turn in an effort to be in the right cog once they have COMPLETED braking for the turn, thus enabling them to a/ make the turn and b/ power out of the turn.

In fact, I can't think of one example of professional drivers with manual boxes doing this (tarmac type series', manual boxes etc).

The whole compression lock-ups when braking into a corner this way would suggest that the driver should utilise heel-toe skillz so as not to lose the bum-end going into the corner (see HPI 5 - Wakefield track day for good examples).

I'm not suggesting for a moment that the technique Martin has suggested in this post wont work for weekend track warriors (I do it but with some rev matching where possible), just that it's not applicable in the motorsport arena as mentioned.

Adrian.

----------------

This $0.02 brought to you by the disclaimer above!

[Edge]

So what you brake on the engine - you get engine assisted vacuume brakes = better performance in quick braking before turn!

To keep your gearbox moving it is better to brake in gear, braking out of gear would lose gear momentum. Due to the amount of time spent braking out of gear. (thinking syncromesh)

Also the risk of breaking you engine due to tensioning your pistons from a badly under revved

position is increased when you do 5th to 2nd gear changes.

Thanks for pointing this out fatz.

The only thing the method might be useful for is saving fuel? Engine revs drop quickly while braking.

[Duncan]

I'd suggest that in a properly balanced car on a track, you should not be braking on the engine at all, the brakes are a far more effective than engine/compression braking....and the issue with using the engine to brake is that it only affects the driven wheels, in a rear driver that it quite likely to cause compression lock as the weight is over the front wheels.

Another thing to keep in mind is that when you are braking, you are on the brakes much longer than you need to be changing gear. So, how long your gear changes take make little difference to your lap times (unless you're really, really slow), and that means that skipping a gear won't affect your times either.

You just complete your gear changes (and most braking) before turning into the corner, brake lighter to apex if there is understeer, and back on accelerator in correct gear from around the apex depending on the car's balance. Simple.

Out of interest, and in direct opposition to skaife's double clutching down through each gear, I saw an interesting tv slot on murphy's left foot braking - he is full on brakes with left foot (no clutch on downchanges), right foot is used to blip throttle to correct revs for each gear. He reakon's only problem with this is if he hits kitty litter it always stalls (no time to take left foot off brake!)