Advice Needed On Tuner/mechanic

[Turbz RB-25]

Morning Fellas,

This is a bit of a long story so be patiant with me......

About 5 months ago, I approached a business in Canberra (I don't want to mention who as I am not the type of person to discredit someone for a bad experience) to build me a RB30 short block, port and polish my RB25 head, fit it all up with my GT35R 0.82 A/R turbo, fit my plazmaman plennum, and tune it.

When I first asked the tuner, before I took out a $16,000 loan to do all this, I asked "how much will this cost from A-Z"? he replied "Around 15 - 17K at the most, won't be anywhere near 20K"

I asked him, "how long is this going to take?" he replied "About 3 weeks for the engine build, and 3 weeks to fit and tune everything".

I further asked him, "I want to make around the 370 rwkw mark, will my computer and injectors be enough for this? he replied "Yep, it'll all be fine, done worry"

FYI, I got a R33 GTS-T with 555cc nismo injectors, running a power FC with a Z32 AFM, 256 - 264 cams with cam gears, Bosch 040 fuel pump etc etc etc.

5 months later the car was finally finished and I got my final tune done yesterday. It barely pulled off 311 rwkw.

To date, I've already speant over $22,000 for this build and tune, FAR from what the estimate price was.

And on top of that, the tuner said yesterday "Oh, your AFM is maxed out, you'll need a new computer, which will cost about $2,400 not fitted or tunned, and you'll need 740 cc injectors"

And by this stage, I was very pissed off because he informed me, before I ever started this project, that my computer and injectors will hold up.

Not to mention that I was already $5,000 over budget!!!! and he wanted me to for out another $2,400 for the computer not even fitted and $900 for injectors!! Not to mention the tune...

For this reason, I told him openly over the phone yesterday, "this process has been nothing but broken promises". He chucked the shits, and hung up on me.

What do you fellas suggest I do?? I cant keep affording to pay this much money, I wont have money to feed me and my family if it keeps going at this rate.....

So now, I am stuck with a 310 rwkw car, and I've paid him over $22,000. Do I take it to another tuner here in Canberra? Should I go see a lawyer?

I feel ripped off and deceived.... $22,000 to get a RB30 block with firged everything, ported head, plennum and turbo fitted up, few parts here and there like oil catch can, hoses etc + labour for $22,000? DOesn't that sound like a bit too much?

Shit, I couldve sold my car for like $10,000 and could've bought a modified R33 GTR for $32,000....

Please give me some suggestions fellas.........

[r33_racer]

Sorry to hear about that mate. Nothing worse then dumping a whole lot of money into a project and at the end you dont get the desired result! Big let down!

I dont have the solution unfortunately, but if you could perhaps list exactly, part by part of what was done by the workshop so we can see and work out how much it should of cost. It might give a fair idea of how much parts were and labour and whatnot to see if the amount spent equals the amount of work/parts done/supplied.

Without knowing all of it in exact detail, to achieve the power you wanted you would of definitely needed bigger injectors and atleast a q45 afm. The powerfc can handle it fine. I dont know why he wants you to upgrade the computer?!?!

[The Dan]

I have just done a 2530 build for a guy. It didnt't include injectors, ECU or tuning and his bill is just over $14k. I don't think the guy is necessarily ripping you off, I think maybe he just might lack the experience to quote the job properly. We all make mistakes now and then when quoting things but it all comes down to talking with the customer about those extra costs and being able to explain why they are more or whatever. Not the fact that he said it will cost $15k and you end up paying $20k. He may not be entirely at fault and I'm sure if there was a third party looking in from the outside, he may pick at some things you have done or said during the build.

I'm not exactly sure but I'm just saying that sure, he may have forgotten to quote for various things but there is sometimes input from the customer which can be reasons why he wouldn't quote the full amount. Did you already have the injectors before the build started? From the builds I have done and others I have seen, it is usually very difficult to get up around the 370rwkw mark on an AFM but can still be done. 550cc injectors should see you to 400rwkw. There could be another reason for it not making the power like fuel pump or maybe the tune is not 100%, who knows.

You need to be running around 26psi to get to 370rwkw on that turbo providing you have the right setup on the head etc.

[Turbz RB-25]

Hi fellas,

Attached are the following invoices:

1) From the engine builder (however, I still went through my tuner to get this done)

2) Invoice from the tuner

Please note that I didn't attach the last invoice (yesterday's one) which costed me $880 for the tune and fitment and supply of an oil catch can.

[skylinecouple]

I really feel for you. A lot of us hear have been through the same thing. At least yours is still in one piece. I think "Cubes" might be able to give some advice as he has done well with his combination. Looks to me like you will need a bigger exhaust housing. Not a serious problem. Quite cheap really. Injectors I think for sure. 370kws needs to be fed.

How many Rb's has he built ? Maybe he just hasn't done an RB30 before. Five months sounds about right. It is always funny when you ask a builder how long and he looks you straight in the eyes and says, "yep, that will be three weeks". That's usually when you walk away. There are guys on here that can actually do it in 6 weeks but you would have to confirm with them.

I remember a 55' Chevy I had and was getting an engine built for it. I think the promise was a month. 4 months later I pulled into his workshop with a crate motor from the states and told him to have it running by the end of the week. My old engine was still sitting on his engine stand with the carby, dizzy,headers, everything. It hadn't been touched in 4 months. Threats were made let me tell you.

[Turbz RB-25]

I have just done a 2530 build for a guy. It didnt't include injectors, ECU or tuning and his bill is just over $14k. I don't think the guy is necessarily ripping you off, I think maybe he just might lack the experience to quote the job properly. We all make mistakes now and then when quoting things but it all comes down to talking with the customer about those extra costs and being able to explain why they are more or whatever. Not the fact that he said it will cost $15k and you end up paying $20k. He may not be entirely at fault and I'm sure if there was a third party looking in from the outside, he may pick at some things you have done or said during the build.

I'm not exactly sure but I'm just saying that sure, he may have forgotten to quote for various things but there is sometimes input from the customer which can be reasons why he wouldn't quote the full amount. Did you already have the injectors before the build started? From the builds I have done and others I have seen, it is usually very difficult to get up around the 370rwkw mark on an AFM but can still be done. 550cc injectors should see you to 400rwkw. There could be another reason for it not making the power like fuel pump or maybe the tune is not 100%, who knows.

You need to be running around 26psi to get to 370rwkw on that turbo providing you have the right setup on the head etc.

Hi mate, I already had my 555cc nismo injectors, I already had a Boosch 040 fuel pump.

There is no problem with the fuel, the tuner called me and said the AFM has maxed out, and he didn't want to tune it anything past that unless I get a new computer (which is fair enough I guess, I guess he doesnt want to damage my engine).

As for the fuel, he then said, if I want to make 370 rwkw, I would have to either get a Fuel Pressure Regulator or 740cc injectors.

The whole problem is, had I known I would have to fork out another $2,400 for a new computer, $400 to wire it up, and another $600 to tune it, I would never have gone through with the project, I wouldve just purchased a modified GTR.

Not to mention that I am already a few K over my budget........

At the end of the day, I am not that knowledgable in what needs to be put together for the build.

If my tuner/mechanic says 15-17K, I expect it to be around there, and not have to fork out $22K plus after.....

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh how am I supposed to eat tonight, I am broke as a joke...........

Edited May 7, 2009 by Turbz RB-25

[NYTSKY]

Looking at the quote i know who done the work.

[Turbz RB-25]

Looking at the quote i know who done the work.

Hi mate, please keep that info to yourself, I don't want to discredit the tuner's business because of the bad experience I had.

I guess this should serve me a lesson, next time I get a quote, I should get it in writing, not just verbal......

Cheers

[ylwgtr2]

could have been worse....he could have doctored the dyno to bump up the figures

[TiTAN]

You also have a bosch 040 as far as i was aware that wont provide enough fuel for 370kw.

Looking at the quote i know who done the work.

I have personally delt with one of the parties and know of others that have delt with both without any issues.

[Turbz RB-25]

You also have a bosch 040 as far as i was aware that wont provide enough fuel for 370kw.

Again.... Mechanic said it'll be fine BEFORE I got any work done..........

[The Dan]

I have gone over the figures in those invoices and I can tell you now you need to pick up the phone, ring your tuner and thank him at least 10 times for looking after you so much on this build.

There are a couple of things that I would say are slightly over the norm but they are only small things. He has only charged you 10 hours on the porting, he has only charged you $1100 to assemble the engine (which is cheap as all shit if you consider the work that goes into it inc. cleaning etc.)

He has basically remodelled your entire car, not just built you an engine and tuned it. There is modifications to the exhaust, a manifold, an alternator, etc, etc.

The truth is, you can spend $15k and get your engine, and get it tuned for 370rwkw but it won't be reliable.

And your pump is an 040 as stated above - only good for max 320rwkw and that's pushing it IMO.

[Turbz RB-25]

I have gone over the figures in those invoices and I can tell you now you need to pick up the phone, ring your tuner and thank him at least 10 times for looking after you so much on this build.

There are a couple of things that I would say are slightly over the norm but they are only small things. He has only charged you 10 hours on the porting, he has only charged you $1100 to assemble the engine (which is cheap as all shit if you consider the work that goes into it inc. cleaning etc.)

He has basically remodelled your entire car, not just built you an engine and tuned it. There is modifications to the exhaust, a manifold, an alternator, etc, etc.

The truth is, you can spend $15k and get your engine, and get it tuned for 370rwkw but it won't be reliable.

And your pump is an 040 as stated above - only good for max 320rwkw and that's pushing it IMO.

Hi mate,

I am not worried about the engine build (actually, I was happy to pay a premium because I've heard excellent things about the builder).

By looking at the tuner invoices, it makes sense how it's amounted to that total, I am not saying it doesn't.

My issue is that I was quoted for something to be done, and it was alot more, and I still haven't gotten the power that I was assured I would get. Not only that, the tuner wants me to spend more money....

Oh, and my alternator was fine when I drove the car in, 2 months later and I get a call from the tuner saying my alternator is faulty...

I couldn't help but think, it was fine when I drove it in there.................. Nonetheless, I sucked it up and paid for it.

[femno]

The prices seem to be fairly right.

The only reason why this thing hasnt gone to plan is because the mechanic underquoted, which is mostly his fault, probably lack of experience with these things, BUT sometimes things go wrong and take way longer to do.

Modify Manifold: He wouldnt have quoted for this at all. Things like that bump up the price. Stupid little things that take hours.

It seems his knowledge is poor as he thinks a 040 can handle 370kw, and that the PFC isnt up to the task, which it certainly is. 550 injectors are definetly cutting it close fuel wise too. He is right to suggest ~700 injectors, but you would expect that he would have known this before even starting.

No point saying 'it only made 310' because the supporting mods arent there...yet. It will make the power in due time.

Dues this mechanic work on skylines all the time, more to the point highly modified examples? Sounds like a V8 mechanic trying to work on Skylines scenario.

[Turbz RB-25]

The prices seem to be fairly right.

The only reason why this thing hasnt gone to plan is because the mechanic underquoted, which is mostly his fault, probably lack of experience with these things, BUT sometimes things go wrong and take way longer to do.

Modify Manifold: He wouldnt have quoted for this at all. Things like that bump up the price. Stupid little things that take hours.

It seems his knowledge is poor as he thinks a 040 can handle 370kw, and that the PFC isnt up to the task, which it certainly is. 550 injectors are definetly cutting it close fuel wise too. He is right to suggest ~700 injectors, but you would expect that he would have known this before even starting.

No point saying 'it only made 310' because the supporting mods arent there...yet. It will make the power in due time.

Dues this mechanic work on skylines all the time, more to the point highly modified examples? Sounds like a V8 mechanic trying to work on Skylines scenario.

Yes, he works on many modified japanese cars, he is a top bloke, I am just pissed off that the end price is MUCH more than the original quote......

I guess there is no point dwelling on what's happened ey?

Im trying to stay positive about all of this....

So, so far I need (please tell me if the prices are sort of correct):

1) 740cc injectors; (About $890 + $100 fitment?)

2) Bosch 044 fuel pump ($290 + $150 fitment?)

3) Computer? What should I get? Maybe Illl have to do a bit more research on this, see who can tune what here in canberra....

I can see another $5,000 being blown just on the three things above with a tune....

Cheers fellas

[2LV8ETR]

It happened to me a few times too.

When someone asks for a quick "how much is it going to cost?", my reply is always to say that without sitting down and working it out it's roughly $XXXX.

I prefer to sit down and work things out but now I have learned to overestimate the cost by 20% when answering verbally to avoid disappointment simply because I don't like to let people down.

I don't know the guy but I'm sure he didn't mean to stuff you around man. Hopefully a little lesson learned on both sides here which is to sit down and work it out to avoid disappointment.

Good luck with the rest of the build.

[Turbz RB-25]

It seems his knowledge is poor as he thinks a 040 can handle 370kw, and that the PFC isnt up to the task, which it certainly is.

I don't think he meant the computer itself isn't up to the task, I think he meant a computer with an AFM isn't up to the task.

Most AFM's max out at 5V, so you can only do a "dodgey" tune so to say after a certain power figure.

This will be risky and I could have alot of detonation on a hot day or is something goes wrong, which could potentially damage the engine.

I think he is hesitant to do this because of the risk associated with doing so, that's why I think he's saying getting a new computer.

Maybe I could get away with just finding a larger AFM? I've heard the Z32 is better than the Q48 (or what ever it's called) because it has a bigger resolution of something?

[rtune]

Why do you need to budget for a new computer? nothing wrong with a PFC.

but you probably need bigger AFM.

[Turbz RB-25]

Why do you need to budget for a new computer? nothing wrong with a PFC.

but you probably need bigger AFM.

Well, I've got a Z32 at the moment, and rumor has it that it's probably the best AFM you can get?

I started a little thread here a little while back about where I can get a bigger AFM, like the Q48, but people advised me to stick to the Z32 as it has a larger resolution (got no idea what that means)?

CHeers

[Pattygtst]

Your almost there mate. Get some sard 850cc injecotrs and a bosch 044 from slide. I would have thought the z32 would be up to the task, if not i am sure someone here with will no what to get and where to get it.

Unfortunately the mechanic has underestimated the project. Pretty common though.

Good luck and i am sure you will get your desired power figure soon. I am sure the tuner will probably do the extra tuning for free too