$ Value Of Genuine Gibson Motorsport Rb20det

[Jetwreck]

really!

Sorry my bad....your right and all counts!....was not trying to offend you!

Oh and I didn't avoid the question on strip/down & maintenance I just though it was irrelevant at the time but now I know why you ask! .....If you really want to know, the last time we stripped down one of our motors for a freshen up it was only for ring's and bearing's...same as it was the last three times before that.....approx 2K

On another topic we did have a cam problem for a little while there.....but thats because the cam grind was crooked from the cam grinder....damn it....was our last blank as well.....goes to show you that when taking short cuts to save a buck it can quite often cost you!

[NZM.031]

oh boy.... i thought i was going to be in for a quiet day at work... ash is fired up now so this could be good... let the internet war begin!! *sits back with coffee and biscuits*

i can see what ash is getting at...

with $200 dollars of metal and some time spent cutting and welding, i can reproduce a gms style exhaust in my garage, costing nothing but time and outlay for the metal..

back in those days, welders were not as advanced, turbo manifolds not as advanced, steel not as advanced, it was all trial and error and lots of r&d... but by todays standards its border line of crap... an original EM is only worth anything to a gms rb20 owner... now days you can make one on a cad program and do all the calculations before even touching a piece of steel.

the gms GTR's cost $600000 per car, the rb26's in the gtr's cost $100000 to build... and they carried a few spare engines in the truck.. i think the 18" lightweight magnesium wheels were something ridiculous like $20000 each (im not sure on that, ill find out) no other car then used 18" wheels so they had to be developed.

i imagine the cost of the r31s would be half that... so $300000, i dont doubt the cost of the manifold for the rb20's as they were a relativley new engine at the time, and the technology starts at the race cars and works down the line. noone had done them to that level before, so everything was new and custom. the fact the they basically redesigned the heads and blocks could be $20000 right there.. then custom rods and pistons, solid heads, big cams, all stuff that had never been done before at that time.. thanks to their R&D, we found out that the rb20 (while i love them) is no comparison to the rb26 or rb25.

i personally wouldnt pay more then $1500 for any exhaust manifold... as id rather spend that on a decent welder and make my own, using trial and error and learning things along the way.

feel free to flame me or pick any indescrepencies (theres one right there).. thats what the internet is for.

[PM-R33]

yeh but who wants a 30/26?? they are lame and unoriginal... they a fad for the moment, like skinny jeans and vests

whats next? using a patrol 4.2L block with 26 head??

rb20's rock..

Unoriginal? A engine that was never ment to be, that people thought might work together and had to modify to make work and created a fantastic engine is more unoriginal than a factory RB20 that you get in ever R32 GTST?

[NZM.031]

Unoriginal? A engine that was never ment to be, that people thought might work together and had to modify to make work and created a fantastic engine is more unoriginal than a factory RB20 that you get in ever R32 GTST?

yeh they a like an iPhone... at first they are rare and awesome, truly unique that everyone desires... then everyone jumps on the bandwagon and gets their hands on one and they lose appeal.

fantastic engine maybe.... worthy of respect... hardly.

[R31Nismoid]

oh boy.... i thought i was going to be in for a quiet day at work... ash is fired up now so this could be good... let the internet war begin!! *sits back with coffee and biscuits*

i can see what ash is getting at...

with $200 dollars of metal and some time spent cutting and welding, i can reproduce a gms style exhaust in my garage, costing nothing but time and outlay for the metal..

back in those days, welders were not as advanced, turbo manifolds not as advanced, steel not as advanced, it was all trial and error and lots of r&d... but by todays standards its border line of crap... an original EM is only worth anything to a gms rb20 owner... now days you can make one on a cad program and do all the calculations before even touching a piece of steel.

lol, nah im about to go to bed actually, so won't be hearing bo-peep outta me

At least someone is now understanding what i am getting at either way, only took one page. My point is PAYING for it to be made, and that person making it thinking its 9k, thats just unjustifiable!

I wouldn't say $200 of metal though, there is a fair bit more pipe on a GMS than your average highmount

[NZM.031]

I wouldn't say $200 of metal though, there is a fair bit more pipe on a GMS than your average highmount

its all about who you know and what they've got laying around in their workshop

i couldve said a carton instead of $200 and id still be gettin it for less than that. haha.

[Jetwreck]

We are talking about the same thing are we not.......sorry your not getting through to me....I got lost again at $200

oh by the way can you recommend the workshop that I can get em made for $1,500?

Edited January 21, 2010 by Jetwreck

[NZM.031]

yeh talking about the same thing... im just being smart that i know someone who has a bunch of manifold tubing laying around... used it to make extractors for his gt40 replica... lotsa pipe work involved in that, and he made 2 sets as he wasnt happy with the first set..

[andy65b]

its all about who you know and what they've got laying around in their workshop

i couldve said a carton instead of $200 and id still be gettin it for less than that. haha.

I'll take you up on that offer. You get that exhaust exactly the same for $200 and I will buy it from you for $400.

There you go double your money since it is so easy.

The same as the photo right.

I don't see any welds till they join.

Edited January 21, 2010 by andy65b

[Roy]

oh boy.... i thought i was going to be in for a quiet day at work... ash is fired up now so this could be good... let the internet war begin!! *sits back with coffee and biscuits*

i can see what ash is getting at...

with $200 dollars of metal and some time spent cutting and welding, i can reproduce a gms style exhaust in my garage, costing nothing but time and outlay for the metal..

back in those days, welders were not as advanced, turbo manifolds not as advanced, steel not as advanced, it was all trial and error and lots of r&d... but by todays standards its border line of crap... an original EM is only worth anything to a gms rb20 owner... now days you can make one on a cad program and do all the calculations before even touching a piece of steel.

the gms GTR's cost $600000 per car, the rb26's in the gtr's cost $100000 to build... and they carried a few spare engines in the truck.. i think the 18" lightweight magnesium wheels were something ridiculous like $20000 each (im not sure on that, ill find out) no other car then used 18" wheels so they had to be developed.

i imagine the cost of the r31s would be half that... so $300000, i dont doubt the cost of the manifold for the rb20's as they were a relativley new engine at the time, and the technology starts at the race cars and works down the line. noone had done them to that level before, so everything was new and custom. the fact the they basically redesigned the heads and blocks could be $20000 right there.. then custom rods and pistons, solid heads, big cams, all stuff that had never been done before at that time.. thanks to their R&D, we found out that the rb20 (while i love them) is no comparison to the rb26 or rb25.

i personally wouldnt pay more then $1500 for any exhaust manifold... as id rather spend that on a decent welder and make my own, using trial and error and learning things along the way.

feel free to flame me or pick any indescrepencies (theres one right there).. thats what the internet is for.

err, sorry, steel is steel is steel, nothing has changed in a good many years. Also, you wont be able to make anything like the GMS manifold or the GTS-R manifold as they are mostly mandrel bent pieces of tube, so think 6 bent tubes welded together. NOT your box of elbow and pipe all welded together into a mix of bits like a 6boosdt. Mandrell bent means less welds, less likely to crack, smoother ID, so less turbulence and heat

As for design, nothing has changed in that area as well, remember then pinncle of turbo technology was back in the 80s with F1. About the only development is making cast manifolds with integral turbo exhaust housings.

Also Ash, i think you will find Jetwreck has a pretty good idea about these cars as he gets to drive them on a good weekend

But back to the point, the engine itself only makes a little bit more power then my std RB20, and the main reason it will be more reliable is cooling. Put the GMS RB20 in my car and it woudl still suffer after few laps because of the poor cooling of my road car. So the question is, what woudl you pay for an RB20 with std crank, std rods, and ported head and cams/valves. I would pay 6-8k including a good oil pump etc And i have a pretty good idea of whats in these engines

[R31Nismoid]

We are talking about the same thing are we not.......sorry your not getting through to me....I got lost again at $200

oh by the way can you recommend the workshop that I can get em made for $1,500?

Yes that we are.

Was from a ex-gibson dev/demo car. HR31, N/A build plated shell just like all the others. Like i said, it was sold for $1500 (or there abouts, what any manifold would sell for).

Please quote where anyone $1500.

You'll find $2,500 was the comparative reference given to what a well known fabricator of high end manifolds.

Which workshop pricing, time/hours would be about right. Hell i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say 3.5k.

No way it's 9k, sorry but thats just delusional stuff.

Also Ash, i think you will find Jetwreck has a pretty good idea about these cars as he gets to drive them on a good weekend

Oh i'm well aware of that. As i said, in the name of restoration & preservation of "what is", extorsion pricing often comes about.

[NZM.031]

I'll take you up on that offer. You get that exhaust exactly the same for $200 and I will buy it from you for $400.

There you go double your money since it is so easy.

The same as the photo right.

I don't see any welds till they join.

i wasnt offering anything, so theres nothing for you to take me up on, i never said it was easy, i never said i wanted to make one to sell, what is your point about the welds?? i merely said, if you have access to the materials, which i was a smart arse about, and access to the equipment, you too can make one just like it. i can weld pieces together if i so wish, or i can mandrel bend the tubes if i so wish.

if i was to sell it, it would depend how many hours i put into it.. and whether i could put a price on those hours.. like the gibson ones, they are worth $9000 to whoever owns it, and whoever wishes to pay that for them. i could make one that could be priceless, meaning i wouldnt part with it for any amount of money.

my whole point relates to ash's initial point... its only worth what someone will pay for it,.. what one man knows, another man can learn, its not rocket science, its making equal length tubes out of steel and welding them to 2 flanges.. its labour intensive and mind boggling, yes, but its not unachievable if you apply yourself to it and it can be done, it can be replicated, and it can possibly be made better.

its not moon metal.

[andy65b]

my whole point relates to ash's initial point... its only worth what someone will pay for it,.. what one man knows, another man can learn, its not rocket science, its making equal length tubes out of steel and welding them to 2 flanges.. its labour intensive and mind boggling, yes, but its not unachievable if you apply yourself to it and it can be done, it can be replicated, and it can possibly be made better.

its not moon metal.

I thought your point was they are charging too much for what it would cost to make. I guess if it was so easy to make all these expert fabricators would be making them out of there scrap metal and retiring with the profit.

It does not matter whether you are talking about exhausts or any other products there are always those who recon things cost too much and the ones who knock the loudest are usually the ones who even if it was cheaper would never buy one.

[NZM.031]

err, sorry, steel is steel is steel, nothing has changed in a good many years. Also, you wont be able to make anything like the GMS manifold or the GTS-R manifold as they are mostly mandrel bent pieces of tube, so think 6 bent tubes welded together. NOT your box of elbow and pipe all welded together into a mix of bits like a 6boosdt. Mandrell bent means less welds, less likely to crack, smoother ID, so less turbulence and heat

roy, you say that like its impossible to mandrel bend a tube of steel.. and many steels have changed properties over the years to make them lighter, stronger, more malliable, stiffer, heat resistent, whatever.

im just waiting on the old boy to send me pics of his extractors which he and i made for his car and i will show you it can be done.

challenge accepted fellas... im going to make my own exhaust manifold for my rb20.. when my car hits the ground in 2 or 3 years time, look out for the manifold.

[Jetwreck]

Sorry I made a mistake $2,500....and I had the number 2 in my head as well....doh!.

So who sold em again for $1,500 anyway?

Also in the interest of my own further knowledge can you maybe explain to me how you would get them made to exactly the same specification.....I mean in the day GMS had quite a few problems with the exhaust manifolds cracking, sagging, welding falling apart ect......and I wouldn't want to burn $3.5K on a maybe it will work senario. Or is one of your workshops willing to keep remaking them for me until they are right? For $3.5K?

I agree with the extortion comment.....however if you are gullible enough to pay the price without doing the research you deserve to get burnt........... mind you if I was to build a car to try to win a Championship I might well spend the money for the best equipment I can get......and the advances in technology ect are certainly making things cheaper...aye!

Roy, nearly with you on the 8-9G!!!!.....I was in the region of 10K to 12K.....if we were to sell one of ours that is.

[evil_weevil]

Im going to take a guess at anywhere from 120k to 200k for a GMS r31

[evil_weevil]

ohwait!!

thats for the whole car!!! LOL /\/\/\/\

[Jetwreck]

double post!

Edited January 21, 2010 by Jetwreck

[NZM.031]

these are some pics from the old boys gt40, we figured out were the collectors had to be, tacked them in place with a rod, mocked up the pipes using tacked press bends of mild steel tube, then when it was all good, mandrel bent each individual tube out of thin stainless tube to replicate the mocked up tube, sent them away for coating, then tacked them in place on the flange, and then went round and completed the welding, cleaned up the collectors with a die grinder. they arent quite finished yet though.

we did the longest tube first, then used the length of that to do the other ones at equal length.

[Roy]

these are some pics from the old boys gt40, we figured out were the collectors had to be, tacked them in place with a rod, mocked up the pipes using tacked press bends of mild steel tube, then when it was all good, mandrel bent each individual tube out of thin stainless tube to replicate the mocked up tube, sent them away for coating, then tacked them in place on the flange, and then went round and completed the welding, cleaned up the collectors with a die grinder. they arent quite finished yet though.

we did the longest tube first, then used the length of that to do the other ones at equal length.

Nice,BUT, make that maifold using far tighter bends and twists to fit an in line 6 tucked close to the inner strut then hand a 6kg weight off it when its glowing red. I agree they are not impossible to make, but i looked closely at this back in 2000-2001 as i was working for a specialistwelding/fabrication company and as the Australasian agents for serck we did lots of shell ad tueb heat exchangers and at the time i had a good feel for the tube bending costs