Grout filling and sleeves

[Old man 32 GTR]

Ok, spoke to machine shop today, will be ordering custom pistons to bring comp up to 10.5-1. Block will be half grout filled. 
Question: what are the pros and cons of resin fill apposed to grout? 
I have the option of either, I’ve read topics/discussions on grout filling and the consensus is most would do it on here. so I’m not after the same info, I’m after info on resin, is it good, or better to stick with traditional methods? 
They are also recommending I sleeve the block, is it worth the $$ and effort? I’m was told bores would hold their shape for a longer period running more power, be less prone to blow by and oil consumption caused by out of round bores? 
 

[khezz]

My block was built by JHH. It is half grout filled and sleeved.  Inlet main caps and brace. JHH rate it safe for 60psi and 1500hp. Still much cheaper then billet. I have been told that sleeping makes the landing (top of the block) weaker. JHH say it’s rubbish and before billet, sleeping was the way to go for max power. All depends how much hp you are trying to push. All billets are sleeved.

[Predator1]

On 08/07/2022 at 12:35 AM, khezz said:

My block was built by JHH. It is half grout filled and sleeved.  Inlet main caps and brace. JHH rate it safe for 60psi and 1500hp. Still much cheaper then billet. I have been told that sleeping makes the landing (top of the block) weaker. JHH say it’s rubbish and before billet, sleeping was the way to go for max power. All depends how much hp you are trying to push. All billets are sleeved.

Hows your oil temps? Grout filling will bring up your oil temps. And agreed, I'd rather sleeve then go billet. You need pretty big oil pressures for billet.

[khezz]

With any heavily modified RB you’ll need to go for a good oil pump. Big sump extension or dry sump and good oil cooler. Also get a good quality radiator. Heat is not a bigger issue as you are only filling the bottom half of the cylinder wall where the combustion does not happen. The top half still has the water and oil going past. Don’t skimp on oil and water control if you are putting that much money into your block. If you have to choose one, forget grout and sleeves and go for best fluid control/flow. Lack of fluids will kill your motor very quickly. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by khezz

[r32-25t]

I always find it funny when people talk about billet being more expensive, yes the initial build is more expensive but the when (not if) the deck of the cast block cracks and you have to pay for it again, you’re then well and truly behind compared to what the billet engine would have ended up costing 

[khezz]

On 15/7/2022 at 2:28 PM, r32-25t said:

I always find it funny when people talk about billet being more expensive, yes the initial build is more expensive but the when (not if) the deck of the cast block cracks and you have to pay for it again, you’re then well and truly behind compared to what the billet engine would have ended up costing 

Why would it crack? If built and tuned well, there is now reason why a cast block won’t last. Billet have there own issues. You’d have to rebuild a cast block 3 times over to catch up to billet. Billet blocks expand a lot more then cast which creates its own issues. It comes down to power goals. There are plenty 1000-1300whp that drive and race year after year. Just look at GTR challenge list.

[r32-25t]

On 18/7/2022 at 12:40 AM, khezz said:

Why would it crack? If built and tuned well, there is now reason why a cast block won’t last. Billet have there own issues. You’d have to rebuild a cast block 3 times over to catch up to billet. Billet blocks expand a lot more then cast which creates its own issues. It comes down to power goals. There are plenty 1000-1300whp that drive and race year after year. Just look at GTR challenge list.

The deck isn’t thick enough in a cast 26 block and will eventually crack, I’ve seen and old school n1 block with all the shit (billet mains, girdle blah blah) and it’s still cracked. You think the engines last forever in those 9/8/7 second cars? You’re dreaming 

[khezz]

On 17/7/2022 at 10:59 PM, r32-25t said:

The deck isn’t thick enough in a cast 26 block and will eventually crack, I’ve seen and old school n1 block with all the shit (billet mains, girdle blah blah) and it’s still cracked. You think the engines last forever in those 9/8/7 second cars? You’re dreaming 

N1 blocks are not special at all. You don’t know why the block cracked. Was it a fault with fuel supply? Bad tuning? Poor build? You are right, high hp engines do not last for ever. But if you think a billet block will be in the car for ever, you are wrong. Needing insane oil pressure which causes huge pressure underneath the piston added to clearances that changed drastically due to heat expansion. Those blocks need regular checks on bearings. What does that cost? There is a down side to each block. We are all shortening the life of each engine with pound of boost we shove in it. That’s the cost of it. You want your engine to last for ever, replace all the old shit and leave the boost alone. 

[r32-25t]

New set of bearings is under $500, pretty sure most people could live with that. 

crack a block and your up for a block, sonic testing, grout filling, billet mains/girdle, machine work, rings/bearings, building it and all the little parts no one thinks of. You don’t get much change from 10 grand at that point. Do that not then once and the billet seems cheap 

[khezz]

On 18/7/2022 at 8:17 AM, r32-25t said:

New set of bearings is under $500, pretty sure most people could live with that. 

crack a block and your up for a block, sonic testing, grout filling, billet mains/girdle, machine work, rings/bearings, building it and all the little parts no one thinks of. You don’t get much change from 10 grand at that point. Do that not then once and the billet seems cheap 

Even if you don’t need to change bearings, checking clearances is an engine out and complete pull apart job. Add an extra “0” to that $500. 

[r32-25t]

I don’t pay labour, not everyone builds their car with a cheque book

[khezz]

Well you are the lucky one. For the rest of us, unless we are chasing 1500hp at wheels, nothing wrong with iron. 

[r32-25t]

At the end of the day I know someone with a billet block that’s done over 10,000kms and over 50 9.0sec passes and the engine hasn’t had to be worked on. For me that’s about 10yrs worth of driving

[khezz]

That’s great. I am not saying billet blocks are bad. They are better then iron but it comes down to cost over goals. I want an 8 second pass in a manual. That can easily be achieved in a well build cast iron 3.2L. Would it be easier and safer in a billet block, yes. But for me, it’s not worth the money. Are billet blocks without issues, no. 

[BK]

Both are valid and have their place. To me a billet aluminium block GTR especially with a dry sump is a line being crossed that is race car over street car, as so much needs to fundamentally change under bonnet.

[r32-25t]

On 20/7/2022 at 10:09 AM, khezz said:

That’s great. I am not saying billet blocks are bad. They are better then iron but it comes down to cost over goals. I want an 8 second pass in a manual. That can easily be achieved in a well build cast iron 3.2L. Would it be easier and safer in a billet block, yes. But for me, it’s not worth the money. Are billet blocks without issues, no. 

That’s what you want to do go for it, but don’t argue that it’s so much cheaper when it’s not. If you do a cast block properly there isn’t much difference in price and still end up with a weaker block. 

[r32-25t]

On 20/7/2022 at 10:38 AM, BK said:

Both are valid and have their place. To me a billet aluminium block GTR especially with a dry sump is a line being crossed that is race car over street car, as so much needs to fundamentally change under bonnet.

You don’t have to go dry sump, hi octane do an extended sump and external pump kit that’s a lot cheaper. 
 

Most people already have a remote mount oil filter and oil cooler anyway and we both know the extended sump is a must on any gtr build as is a good oil pump 

[khezz]

On 20/7/2022 at 9:38 AM, r32-25t said:

That’s what you want to do go for it, but don’t argue that it’s so much cheaper when it’s not. If you do a cast block properly there isn’t much difference in price and still end up with a weaker block. 

Sorry. Disagree 100%. Cost of billet block $13000. Cost of cast RB30 $1000. By the time you do grout, brace, caps, sleeves 6-7000 the rest of the machining is the same. It’s different for you because you have your labour costs sorted. I priced both options up and billet with wet sump was still double the price. Dry sump, forget it. For my purposes and 99% of the gtr owners. Cast will do just fine. 

[r32-25t]

A 26 block is 3k for an 05U and then you hope it’s got enough meat in it

What about sonic testing? Half inch head studs? Billet mains? The torque plate being used while the grout is drying? Buying the main and head studs that are supplied with the billet block? 
 

you want to run consultant 8? Most of the cars running those times have moved to billet blocks probably because they cracked the cast ones (I know that’s why wargtr swapped over)

[khezz]

You don’t need an 05U block. That myth has been busted. I know how much it all costs as I have just paid for it. Billet is still twice the price.