Sydneykid

You guys should take some pictures and write a few words on how it is done.

Hi ben, I could detail every cost of every part to compare the prices between GTR and GTST, but it would be a waste of time and effort. So let me give you a simple example, shock absorbers... The GTST, because of its lighter weight, runs a softer spring rate than the GTR's, particularly at the front. I run a set of revalved $800 Koni Sport adjustables on the GTST, they are just about at their capacity controlling the 1245 kgs and ~350 lb springs. On the GTR's I can't use them, they simply don't have enough valving capacity to control the spring rate at ~450 lbs or the extra weight of 275 kgs. So I have to use a larger diameter shock for the superior valving. In addition the GTR can easily boil the oil in the shocks in a 20/30 minute race, so we have to use an external canister to increase the oil carrying capacity and have it away fro m the hot stuff, brakes in particular. So instead of $800 for Konis we have to spent $8K on Proflex. That's $7.2K extra just on shocks. Then there is the price difference between pads for Brembos and pads for what must be one of the the most popular 4 spot calliper around, the standard Sumi/Nissan as found on GTR's, GTST, Z32, 200SX, 240 SX etc etc. Add to that the fact that on the GTR they last one race meeting, whereas the GTST only needs a couple of sets per year. Wanna get into disks? Take it from someone who writes out the cheques, spending $20K to buy a GTR leaving $20-30K which won't get you very far. In fact over 9 race meetings in a year (8 State and 1 Nationals) it won't cover the shock, tyre and brake bill. BTW our GTST cost $4.9K to buy, that's $15K worth of mods against a standard GTR. Roy sounds like he is going to give it a go, so that's enough from me on this subject....

Cool, I spoke to Jim once about the GTR starting technique, he said they used to start with 100% rear drive and then, at the end of first gear, stick a bit of front drive into it. Then add bit more when in second. They raced around 20% to 30% front drive. I don't think it varied much from track to track. His scribbles are on a Winfield GTR poster I have somewhere around here. I think even the Gibson team found all the adjustments tricky to keep track of, they didn't have in cabin adjustable stabiliser bars which surprised me when I saw it. It will be great to have another hi powered GTST to compare setting with

Hi Roy, next time Terry has the ex Gibson R32 GTR out you should come along and have a close look at it. It has hydraulically adjustable 4wd torque splits. Same as ATESSA, but without the computer doing the thinking. The driver just adjust the lever, looks like a second handbrake, but with stops like a stabiliser bar adjuster. From, memory the 4 splits are like; 100% rear drive 5% front drive 10% front drive 30% front drive Some people get confused with HICAS and ATESSA, the race cars never ran HICAS. But I have seen half a dozedn and they all have 4wd adjusters.

No, he would be asking different questions.... "How many Brembo's does it take to stop 1.6 tones" "$5,000 for 3 diffs, how many jobs do I have to work to pay for that?" "Ditto $8,000 for a gearbox?" "It needs 3 tranmission coolers, do Earls think I am made of money? "It's understeering, does it need less front anti roll? Or "more rear anti roll?" Or "3% less front drive on the Attesa controller?" Or "8% slower torque transfer?" Or "has the extra 300 kgs weight in the front destroyed the front tyres already?" We have 2 GTR's in the race teams and 1 GTST, I can tell you that it costs 4 times as much per season to run the GTR's and 3 times as much to build them in the first place. Then when we go to a new track, it takes twice as long to dial them in. Why do you think Group A died? Because GTR's kicked everybody's butt? No, because the cost of running them was unaffordable. Nothing's changed ben, ask the guys who run fast GTR's how much it costs? Maybe I look at it different than you, if I have $30K to spend building a Skyline race car, then a GTST will be faster than a GTR. If I have $150K to spend, then the GTR will be faster. But it won't be 5 times or $120K faster. Well, that's the way I see it

I have a heap to say on this but I need to point out to ben that the GTR had a 2.6 litre twin turbo homologated and the GTST had a single turbo 2 litre. Maybe the reason they raced them wasn't the 4wd, it might have been the extra 30% engine capacity. :wassup: So after getting that one out of the way, let's move on to why I chose a GTST this time... Roy has seen Ray Hislops Falcon (at Philip Island) it won the Improved Production National Championship. Keep in mind it rained for 50% of the Final race. That car has ~750 bhp from a 6 litre NASCAR based Ford V8 (bottom end) with Glen Setons EL V8 Supercar top end (heads injection, trumperts etc ). It runs on 245/45/17 Yokohama A032R's (the class control tyre) and weighs a good 1600 kgs. This car proves that it is entirely possible to get ~500 rwkw to the road using a road legal radial tyre, not a racing slick. I see no reason why a GTST at 1245 kgs (that's what ours weighs) couldn't do the same (or better) as long as it had the same response that the 6 litre V8 does. That's the trick, RESPONSE, it is simply useless having a verticle power band at that sort of power level, you couldn't drive it. It wouldn't be fast for one lap, let alone a 30 minute race. :spew: Keeping the above in mind, that's why I chose an RB31DET (RB30 botom end with RB26 top end). That's why I picked 650 bhp as the power target. That's why I chose a spec (turbo included) that gives the best average power from 4,000 rpm to 7,500 rpm that I can engineer. That's why the engine will make 325-350 bhp without the turbo. The RB31DET is quite capable of handling 900+ bhp, several have, but the power band would only make the car slower. :thumbdwn: So Roy, get into it, I need another R32 GTST @ 650 bhp to compare notes with.

Hi Gojira I have tuned a car on Mt Panorama in real time with a F&W lambda sensor using the self tune functionality of a Motec. From that personal experience I can tell you that there is absolutely no difference in load points on the fuel or igntion maps between 200 kph going up Mt Straight and 200 kph going down Conrod. The only reason we did on track tuning was to allow for altitude and ambient temperature differences, a 24 Hour Race needs that sort of tuning accuracy . So all you need is an atmospheric simulating dyno room.

Have look on www.skylinesdownunder.co.nz there is a company in NZ that translates workshop manuals and they advertise there. I have their translations of the R32 manuals and they are great. If you can't find a Stagea engine manual, I would reckon a R34 GTT would do the job. Hope that helps

Hi Dean, your car auto or manual? Do you know whether the Unichip allows the standard ECU to retard and/or cut the ignition on automatic gearchanges, the same as it did prior to fitting the Unichip Engine Management? I have sent an email off to Unichip asking them, but I thought you might already know.

The main reason I have seen for 2 reg is it makes fitting the second reg easy. People just plumb it in the return hose. Otherwise they would have to fabricate or buy an adaptor for the fuel rail to plumb the new reg in. Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand the logic for having 2 regs in series :confused: , the fuel pressure in the rail is governed by two things; 1. The pressure that the fuel pumps supplies. It doess't matter if I have a 60 psi regulator setting, if the fuel pump only supplies 50 psi, I will only ever get 50 psi. 2. The maximum relief setting on either of the two regulators, the other (lower setting) regulator does nothing to control the max fuel pressure. The only reason for using 2 regs in series would be if the rising rate reg had a lower setting (at low or zero boost) than the standard reg. But that would mean I have chosen the wrong rate of rising rate regulator. :headspin: I prefer to simply buy the right adj reg, that bolts directly onto the standard fuel rail. Nismo and Sard make them, amongst others. Maybe someone else can explain the logic for me

Hi Justin, that's why I built a GTST this time. The brakes that weren't so good on a 1,600 kg GTR, work great on a 1,245 kg GTST. The oil surge that was so hard to fix on a GTR was never a problem on a GTST. The $2.5K clutch is now a $1.3K clutch. The transmission oil cooler simply isn't necessary when you only have 2 wheels to drive. Instead of chewing out a set of tyres per meeting it's now only a pair. The very tricky to set up 4wd suspension is so much easier now, it's a simple rear wheel drive I can do in my sleep. I didn't have 3 diffs to upgrade, only one. etc etc The only time I want the GTR is when it rains, then a 600 bhp GTST is very tricky to drive fast. :headspin:

PFC runs closed loop, so the economy depends on the tuning and the right foot.

Hi Merli, we have removed the wastegate spring on a couple of engines and run them in NA for a hundred k's or so. Then put the spring back for another couple of hundred. I drive them to Bathurst (lot's of nice long hills to pull up) or Canberra, stick the wastegate spring in and then drive them home. By the time I get back they are nicely run in. I am always surprised at how well an RB31DE (no T) goes, especially with some mild cams and head work.

I'm here :wavey:. The "old" R32 GTR with the RB30 in it had no problems, plenty of clearance. The R33 GTST had a Sub Zero inlet plenum on top of the standard inlet manifold, so it had no problems either. The current R32 GTST has plenty of room as it also has a GTR plenum on its RB31DET. I have seen 2 other R33 GTSTs with the standard inlet plenum, it looked like the guys removed a bit of the underbonnet insulation. I couldn't see any dents in their bonnets. :confused: But I can't speak from personal experience, so I keep quiet when I don't know for sure:cheers:

Since the Ultimate you are using comes from the Shell Refinery at Clyde, same as Optimax, I am surpised. If you want to check this, go the the BP web site (www.bp.com.au) it tells you where your fuel is made and who makes it. Save you the trouble here is the quote....

Hi Guys, the later versions of the SAFC have separate WOT and partial throttle tuning. By the time you tune these 2 ranges and add them to the standard ECU closed loop running, you have a pretty good recipe for the best fuel economy your right foot will allow. After tuning the SAFC, the average change in A/F ratios at WOT is between 10% and 20% leaner, the partial throttle is between 5% and 10%. Since the improvement in A/F ratios also results in more power (typically 10%), the theory is if you drive at the same speed and accelerate at the same rate as you did before the tune you could end up with between 10% and 30% fuel economy improvement. So MICR33 is doing pretty well to get a 25% improvement (from 400 to 500 k's). So it is worthwhile telling your tuner that you want him to tune the SAFC at both WOT and partial throttle openings, you will get the extra tuning costs back pretty quick. Hope that helps

Just like a dyno is for an engine, I never leave the workshop without a printout of the wheel alignment. If you have a lack of caster on the left, then the road camber just makes it worse, it's like 1 + 1 = 3. If there is a left front camber problem as well (even a slight one) then 1 + 1 + 1 = 5. And some roads have way more camber than others........... Hope that helps

Yep, Jamie makes good stuff

I understand what you mean benm, but oil starvation is pretty much always instant death. There is no drop in the lifespan of bearings over time due to zero instantaneous oil pressure. If it has oil pressure then the bearing lives, if it has no oil pressure (even for a handfull of revolutions) it will die. Over time bearings wear just from normal use, the more combustion pressure, the quicker the wear. Bit that's not the same as oil starvation, maybe that's why I am a bit paranoid about it :Paranoid: Hope that makes sense

Thanks Duncan, I wonder if they will let me drive it around with a few sets of loan wheels and tyres for a couple of days each? Just to make sure they don't rub anywhere and that the handlig feels OK, they don't make lots of noise, some tyres simply don't work on some cars etc. The clearance testing may be tricky though, because I won't have set the heights up and maybe not upgraded the brakes. Golly, gosh I would hate to buy a set of wheels that fitted today and then find when I lowered it and put the bigger brakes on those nice new wheels didn't fit. :thumbdwn: I'll bet that would never happen.......... :jk:

Nope, you get a different pressure to the gauge which feeds from the plenum due to the resistance in the intercooler and its pipework. But since you tuned the boost via the gauge it makes no difference. I assume you have a BOV of some sort, otherwise the boost controller circuit is going to get hit with large amounts of boost pressure when you take you foot off the throttle.

Nope, there are 3 settings on each bar, so that's 9 possible combinations. If we call the outer (softer) holes on the front bar F1, the inner (harder) hole on the front bar F2. The outer hole on the rear is then R1 and the inner hole R2. The possible combinations are; F1, F1 and R1, R1 (soft front/soft rear) F1, F1 and R1, R2 (soft front/medium rear) F1, F1 and R2, R2 (soft front/hard rear)...sounds like a girl I knew once.... :wassup: F1, F2 and R1, R1 (medium front/soft rear) F1, F2 and R1, R2 (medium front/medium rear) F1, F2 and R2, R2 (medium front/hard rear) F2, F2 and R1, R1 (hard front/soft rear) F2, F2 and R1, R2 (hard front/medium rear) F2, F2 and R2, R2 (hard front/hard rear) Since F1,F2 is the same antiroll rate as F2,F1, to include them would be duplicative. Ditto R1,R2 and R2,R1. That's more than enough to keep you busy choosing you personal favourite

I'll take any info you can dig up, thanks

Yep, it was a "Darwin" price, less accidents and lots less chance of getting it stolen, so cheaper insurance. So far Shannons wins at $1.2K with $400 excess, Just Car second at $1.3K with $1.2K excess, NRMA last at $2.4K.

Thanks to Prank, the Stagea section is now open. :wassup: Is it possible to move this thread over to there?