Tuning Shops Locking Your Ecu's Tune

[Kinks]

First, if your work thinks they can protect code like that they're dreaming - any capable, sufficiently-interested person _can_ get access to the code because they have access to the hardware.

Particularly if it's a generic microcontroller that is well-documented.

If someone wants to see the code they have bought, they're perfectly entitled to do that whether or not your work wants them to.

If they want to change the code, they're also entitled to do that (but if they change it, they're not entitled to hold your work responsible for the effects).

Selling a microcontroller programmed with your work's code would leave the seller open to prosecution under copyright law regardless of patent status.

Yes, given sufficient interest I have no doubt that someone could subvert the in-built chip locks. We're not doing anything top secret worth millions of dollars though so I don't think anyone would go to that effort, they still leave themselves open to prosecution. I completely disagree with the customer being able to request the code though. If you request that Microsoft show you the source code to their operating system just because you bought it, are they legally obliged to? Of course not! It's only software released under GPL where you are obliged to supply your source code.

You're correct on the last point - if someone does duplicate our code and starts selling product we have copyright and will prosecute them.

Locking a device without telling the customer that it is a condition of the sale is not acceptable.

I agree 100%, if the tuner is going to lock the tune the customer should be advised of this before ANY work takes place.

[saliya]

I completely disagree with the customer being able to request the code though. If you request that Microsoft show you the source code to their operating system just because you bought it, are they legally obliged to? Of course not! It's only software released under GPL where you are obliged to supply your source code.

Hey, I should clarify what I meant (even though this may be a little OT now )

See http://www.copyright.org.au/G050.pdf

"A computer program may be reproduced or adapted in order to get information necessary to enable an interoperable product to be made"

I don't mean that the customer says "Kinks, show me your source code" and your company must comply.

I mean if the customer wants to buy your company's device and inspect the code as-is on the device (i.e. read the microcontroller) they are allowed to (even if your company tells them not to; or locks the device to prevent it). Similarly, if they want to modify that code they are legally allowed to.

As you've correctly said, that's not the same thing as demanding the source code from your company. There would be no such thing as closed-source if that were the case...

And we agree on the important part to this thread - tuners shouldn't lock ECUs without making it clear to the customer right at the beginning.

Imagine that conversation:

Customer: Do you tune cars?

Tuner: Yes we do; and then we lock the ECU so that nobody apart from us can change it later.

Customer: Hmm...

Cheers,

SW

[NW007]

And we agree on the important part to this thread - tuners shouldn't lock ECUs without making it clear to the customer right at the beginning.

Imagine that conversation:

Customer: Do you tune cars?

Tuner: Yes we do; and then we lock the ECU so that nobody apart from us can change it later.

Customer: Hmm...

After my experience, hereafter, this will be the first question I ask a tuner. I also would advise anyone getting their car dyno'd to ask the same.

Even owners are curious, they should call the workshop that last tuned their car and suss out if their tune is locked so they don't get a nasty shock when their car goes into another shop to be dyno'd or to diagnose a problem and the shop can't access the tune in the ECU to tune it, or to appropriately diagnose and locate a problem.

But yes.... I'd imagine that if the tuning shops that lock ECUs were up front in relation to locking tunes.... they wouldn't be in the business of tuning cars for very long.

[O2 Autosports]

I'm still undecided on this. I find it very frustrating when I'm trying to diagnose a prolem and sometimes having a tune locked makes it harder. I don't lock ecu's, but with some customers i'm tempted because you just know there going to play with it and cuase themself problems.

[NW007]

I'm still undecided on this. I find it very frustrating when I'm trying to diagnose a prolem and sometimes having a tune locked makes it harder. I don't lock ecu's, but with some customers i'm tempted because you just know there going to play with it and cuase themself problems.

But surely if you ever locked a tune you would release the PIN to someone that is trying and diagnose a problem?

Also, if the owner called and asked for the PIN to a locked tune and offered to sign a release/indemnity in relation to the original tune?

[Swiper the Fox]

I'm still undecided on this. I find it very frustrating when I'm trying to diagnose a prolem and sometimes having a tune locked makes it harder. I don't lock ecu's, but with some customers i'm tempted because you just know there going to play with it and cuase themself problems.

In the early days Jim at CRD used to lock my ecu but explained why he was doing it....its because he knew id fiddle with it. Now that he has a lot more confidence in me he feels there is no need. Customers with an Apexi Commander unit are the most risky...as the tune can be altered quite easily as the interface is always plugged in and generally on display within the vehicle. ECU's with laptop programs to access the tune are less of a risk as its a little more secure.

I have no issue with locking ecu's as long as when the first enquiry is made with the business it is clearly stated and explained that this is their policy. Telling a customer when their car is being tuned or when it is picked up after tuning is completely unacceptable.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Swiper the Fox

[Duncan]

I'm still undecided on this. I find it very frustrating when I'm trying to diagnose a prolem and sometimes having a tune locked makes it harder. I don't lock ecu's, but with some customers i'm tempted because you just know there going to play with it and cuase themself problems.

In the early days Jim at CRD used to lock my ecu but explained why he was doing it....its because he knew id fiddle with it. Now that he has a lot more confidence in me he feels there is no need. Customers with an Apexi Commander unit are the most risky...as the tune can be altered quite easily as the interface is always plugged in and generally on display within the vehicle. ECU's with laptop programs to access the tune are less of a risk as its a little more secure.

seems really simple to me if that is the concern.

Tuner takes a backup of the tune before the car leaves the shop (and they all do anyway of course). If a customer comes back claiming a "tune" problem, compare the current tune to the backup

I agree it is unacceptable for a customer not to know their tune was locked. If they knew it was going to be locked beforehand and accepted that it is a lttiel different

[toddlls]

In the interests of safety I can understand why some would possibly lock a tune so it can not be altered, but I want to be damn well told it is locked at the time of installation.

I guess when a tuner doesn't inform the person who contracted them to perform the upgrade when they lock a tune is just a dodgy F##K.

I would expect the hard work they have paid money to learn to do, spent hours working on & taking responsibility for to be protected from thieves wanting to steal their work as I accept intellectual property rights without question, but when there is a lock then I want to be informed.

I am not an ECU specialist, I dont know all the ins & outs of tuning an engine setup, but I am slowly learning.

I guess its like everything else out there-

There are people who do things the right way, then there are those who just like screwing people over.

If your tuner is being a dick or cant provide services you require then go elsewhere armed with the knowledge of what you want to be done differently when he/she tunes your vehicle.

I wont use a well known Gold Coast Tuner in Nerang cause he's an arrogant POS that acts like this toward me "the customer" when I have spoken to him about doing my car & wanting to be shown what he is doing when he is doing it.

ie I have no actual idea what pinging actually sounds like & want to know or hear this as it happens when he is setting the map as I think it handy info to know-may save my engine 1 day if I do.

On the other side of the coin-He is the preferred tuner by all my mates & is raved about by lots-even tuned a car I drove at a Drift Show for a mates shop as a promo showing for his business here on the Coast which I must say was outstanding & impressive in power delivery-but it only took 1 phone call to put me off side with him personally.

Buying a car with a remap or retune is even harder.

Who knows what has been changed when.

My advice is start over with a tuner close to where you live & who you respect.

It will save you grief later. Plus if the original tuner has`modified your circuit board with a cradle then even better-the new one will probably plug straight in there

[GTR-N1]

seems really simple to me if that is the concern.

Tuner takes a backup of the tune before the car leaves the shop (and they all do anyway of course). If a customer comes back claiming a "tune" problem, compare the current tune to the backup

I agree it is unacceptable for a customer not to know their tune was locked. If they knew it was going to be locked beforehand and accepted that it is a lttiel different

^^^ Your post and saliya's posts gel very well.

On the lighter side, when Just Jap has the HKS guru out from Japan to tune the F-Con Pro-V, I don't understand what he's saying anyway

[racegtst]

I think the point here is that the OP bought a car with a aftermarket tune. He is now chasing a issue with the car and wants to have the tuned by his preferred tuner.

The oringial tuner will not release the PIN NO MATTER WHAT.

This is the part i disagree with.

I think if i bought a car knowing or not knowing that the ECU is locked that i would want to take the car to my preferred tuner and not be locked into the original tuner as my tuner would no doubt remap the entire ECU to the way i now want my car to be and not the previous owner. Also if i want to add or remove mods that my preferred tuner should be able to make the adjustments to the ECU.

If the original tuner will not give code to me then he should give it to my new tuner, take note of time and date which would release him from any responsibility to said tune.

Not releaseing code NO MATER WHAT would in my view be anti competitive and would cost me thousands to replace said ECU just so i can freedo to do with my car what i want with new tuner.

my 2c for what it is worth!

[Duncan]

that's ok terry - Tsukada-san doesn't understand what we say either lots of hand waving required.

[warps]

IP laws clearly state that the creator of a "design" owns the "design". Just becasuse you pay someone an hourly rate to develop it, does not mean you as the client own it, unless it is clearly written into the contract. The default setting is that the person creating the "design" owns it. This is obviously different if the creator is an employee. If they are a contractor / consultant etc then they have full ownership of whatever they design.

Occasionally I have clients thinking that when they pay me an hourly rate, they own everything I develop (usually the hotshot young engineers). It doesn't take very long to convince them they are wrong and the law is on my side. In fact, I own the IP until 60 years after I die.

Must admit that computer programs / code may be treated differently, depending on how the "design" is interpreted. I'd be very interested to hear the outcome if one of these cases went to court.

The tuner has tuned your car with their combined experience and equipment. If their combined expertise can achieve an optimum tune in 2 hours, whereas you would have to spend weeks of road testing and trial and error, then damn right they should own the tune as it was developed through their specialised equipment and expertise.

Are they legally allowed to let a programmable ECU leave their shop without having a locked tune? (genunine question - not having a dig). The EPA laws are pretty strict about programmable ECU's, and I certainly wouldn't want to let a car out of my shop with an unlocked tune.

No, I am not a tuner, nor do I work inthe automotive industry.

I can certainly see the OP's concern, and believe there SHOULD be a mechanism where the tune can be changed by a third party. However, this would have to be with the blessing of the owner of the current tune (who is NOT the owner of the car - sorry to say).

[warps]

If the original tuner will not give code to me then he should give it to my new tuner, take note of time and date which would release him from any responsibility to said tune.

I agree - given the nature of the game of tuning cars. If this is not the case, then perhaps it's another case of laws not keeping up with technology.

Again, depending on whether it's a run of the mill tune on a road car, or a highly developed tune for a top level race car, then this would obviously impact the ruling. If there's nothing special about what the tuner does, and there are hundreds of businesses who can do an equivalent job, then there's more justification for them releasing the code. This still does not mean that you as the customer own the code.

Think of it another way. should Holden / Ford etc. release the ECU codes (or any other design paramaters) to us when we buy a new car? We do, after all own the car, don't we?

[Duncan]

but its even simpler than that......they are not releasing something tricky like code, it is just fuel and timing settings.

i agree if it was a super special race motor (eg a restricted intake ipra motor) and the owner knew....but seriously...a roady? that is just flat out anti-competitive (owner only has the choice of going back at whatever price the tuner wants, or $600+ to start from scratch)

[saliya]

IP laws clearly state that the creator of a "design" owns the "design".

... which, from http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/designs/what_index.shtml is "...overall appearance of a product. The visual features..."

That is, in order to be able to be granted any type of "design creation" IP, the creator must make something visually new

This discussion, however, has nothing to do with any "visual appearance".

If programming (e.g.) a 20x20 matrix within a range of known values/steps constitutes creation of new IP,

then someone could just generate all possible matrices and claim it's their IP.

Must admit that computer programs / code may be treated differently, depending on how the "design" is interpreted. I'd be very interested to hear the outcome if one of these cases went to court.

They're not creating a program; all they're doing is providing a set of presets for an already-existing program.

Kind of like how your microwave runs for 60 seconds after you punch in 6-0-start.

Mechanically adjusting a distributor to add some ignition advance doesn't create IP; so why would doing the same thing electronically?

The tuner has tuned your car with their combined experience and equipment. If their combined expertise can achieve an optimum tune in 2 hours, whereas you would have to spend weeks of road testing and trial and error, then damn right they should own the tune as it was developed through their specialised equipment and expertise.

The reason you're paying them is because of their specialised equipment and expertise; they are taking that payment and using those tools to preset your ECU.

Are they legally allowed to let a programmable ECU leave their shop without having a locked tune? (genunine question - not having a dig). The EPA laws are pretty strict about programmable ECU's, and I certainly wouldn't want to let a car out of my shop with an unlocked tune.

and I believe a valid point. However, this issue could readily be skirted by entitled-to-tune tuner A handing off the password to entitled-to-tune tuner B.

I can certainly see the OP's concern, and believe there SHOULD be a mechanism where the tune can be changed by a third party. However, this would have to be with the blessing of the owner of the current tune (who is NOT the owner of the car - sorry to say).

Do you think that programming a TV with channel information creates IP?

How about setting up a computer or router?

Or setting an egg timer?

All these things involve inputting settings (like setting up an ECU); but they don't create IP.

If someone setup your computer for you, and you wanted to change the desktop background but couldn't because it was locked, I bet you'd (quite rightly) be miffed

Cheers,

Saliya

[Kinks]

If someone setup your computer for you, and you wanted to change the desktop background but couldn't because it was locked, I bet you'd (quite rightly) be miffed

sounds like you've just described microsoft... but I have helped plenty of people who shouldn't even be allowed to change their background.. in fact their PC is safest with the power lead unplugged

[The_AU_Viper]

I certainly wouldn't want to let a car out of my shop with an unlocked tune.

I wouldnt get my car tuned anywhere that wouldnt leave my ECU unlocked. I should not be locked into one place without having to start over every time, nor will i be. Pretty simple really.

[warps]

I wouldnt get my car tuned anywhere that wouldnt leave my ECU unlocked. I should not be locked into one place without having to start over every time, nor will i be. Pretty simple really.

And that's the whole crux of this argument. Agree - from that point of view it's not right to lock someone into having to use your services in the future (although a good money spinner if you can get it!), specially if there are dozens of other companies who use the same equipment and expertise to achieve the same result. I guess it depends on how complex the tune is, and how much work goes into getting it right for your car. I don't think it's anything like TV tuning, setting microwave timers etc. For starters, your TV will auto tune anyway. Show me an ECU that will do that!!

The fact that an ECU can only be tuned correctly and efficiently by people with expertise and the correct equipment, I believe they have a case for claiming IP over the tune they do. I'm certainly no law expert (the stuff I've recently learnt about IP law was from a course I recently did on Contracts law) so I'd be interested to hear a lawyer's take on this - not a car enthusiast who believes that this is how it SHOULD be. I've found that the law doesn't always follow sensible reasoning (on the surface, anyway)

As I said, I can see both sides of the story, and I agree in part with both parties. Call me a fence sitter.

IP laws are very clear about who owns IP. What they're not so clear on is what is defined as IP, and I think that's the issue we have here.

[mad082]

i think the issue here is also that if you get a car with a locked tune and then that tuner shuts down and you make a minor adjustment to the car (or have something play up and the car doesn't idle very well), you are screwed. you have to get a whole new tune done to solve something that could've been solved in 5 mins with access to the tune.

[elrodeo666]

In Japan HKS have been doing this for donkeys years, well ever since the release of the Fcon series.

Having lived there for almost 10 years I totally understand why as the average punter over there, if were able to unlock their tune theres no way they would be able to resist playing with buttons and settings.

There would be blown motors everywhere !!

In Japan its more a thing of making sure the children dont break their toys. There is a massive lack of common sense in Japan.

Theres also the upside for HKS in the continual revenue they make.

They have the policy there that only the registered HKS Tuning shop can tune the ECU. Thing is each tuning shop tuner then locks the tune and can only be accessed by that tuner.

Meaning that you always have to go back to that shop to do any mods to the tune. All tunes and pins are usually kept by the workshop on a data base. There is usually no pin sharing unless the workshop is part of the HKS Company direct umbrella.