HKS GT SS vs 2530's vs Trust T517Z's

[TXSquirrel]

10 hours ago, r32-25t said:

The tomei manifolds are a waste of money due to the fact they crack, have seen factory manifolds that have been open up a little make over 600 Australian horsepower at the wheels

I didn't know Australian horsepower is its own thing and different from other standard measurements LOL

 

6 hours ago, Piggaz said:

Have done a back to back myself about 6 years ago. Took off a set (which was the second set in total) of Tomri manifolds and went back to tickled stock items. No difference at all. On top of that, the second set blew a hole in number 1 runner within 1,500 kms. They're garbage.

Put the money you save towards something useful, like an aftermarket front diff.

As for GT-RS's. No one would miss them if they wernt made anymore. 

I didn't know GT-RS has such bad reputation.  How about the -9's I am looking at?  I mostly cruise my R32, so I was told the GT-SS/-9's has the best low rpm response than any other turbos out there.

I also didn't know Tomei manifolds are such garbage.  I will see if I can get my stock manifolds ported to match Garrett's 38mm x 45mm port.

So how about Tomei's turbo elbow?  I have Reimax front pipe which is 60mm, same as Tomei's elbow.

I knew the front diff is a weak point, but I really didn't know there is aftermarket units available!  Is it an entire internal or just individual components to address the weak links?  

I have much to learn that's for sure.

[r32-25t]

American dynos tend to read stupidly higher then ours and it's become a bit of a running joke 

[JGTC]

Tomei as a brand make some good parts ie. oil pump, camshafts, cam gears.  But their manifolds (being made of stainless steel instead of cast iron) are prone to weakness, and their turbos (oil cooled only, instead of water and oil) leave room for much better improvements.

Some input as i am going through a very similar process at present.

Power

Garrett -9 are a well documented strong performer for a street car, combining them with;

Engine

- port-matched manifolds

- aftermarket turbo elbows (tomei or reimax are perfect)

- cam gears, will be the source of the power increase in your build.

- OPTIONAL - bigger airflow meters (Nismo) or deleted AFMs if

Exhaust

- enlarged front pipe (aka dump pipe)

- enlarged exhaust 3' or 3.5'

Fuel

- larger injectors, stock are approx 444cc, anything from 500-650 will match this sort of power level

- fuel pump (stock GT-R is 197lph, upgraded nismo 255lph is good, Walbro 255 also a good cost effective option)

Optional extras for smaller gains are; mid-size intercooler and entry level camshafts, however, they can delay response for the sake of peak power (especially if a big 100mm intercooler and big lift camshafts are used)

All of these are able to be done with the engine in the car, minimising on labour cost.

 

ECU

- If you have a stock ECU, work with your tuner to select an ECU and boost controller that they are familiar with to achieve the best result

- common aftermarket units include Apexi Power FC (budget) and Haltech Platinum Pro as the premium option (better fail safes, and much more tune-ability.)

Reliability;

If the motor is coming out of the car to be built, you have a few options in terms of amending a few of the factory flaws, as well as strengthening the internal components.

As a guide;

Head

- head refresh (mild port)

- enlarged drain return from the head to the sump

Block

- new bearings

- oil pump (few choices here, either forged gears in the OEM pump, or a aftermarket pump ie. Tomei, note if you are going with an larger pump like the Tomei, you will want an enlarged sump to accommodate for the additional flow)

- sump baffle

There is the option to go further with forged crank, piston, rods, rings and enlarged sump, however this does almost double the cost, for minimal benefit unless there is heavy track work and future plans for more power.

A good guide for a reliability build;

https://www.facebook.com/Tarmac-Solutions-Pty-Ltd-189006661230825/photos/?tab=album&album_id=418233531641469

Some good starting points for reading;

http://www.gtrusablog.com/2010/05/real-basics-nissan-skyline-gt-r-r32-r33.html

http://www.sau.com.au/forums/topic/429930-1994-r32-gtr-stock-to-~320kw/?page=1

Diffs;

I would probably leave this until you've been able to drive the car for a while, the R32 has mechanical diffs which are decent already compared to the R33 & R34 

Money is better spent on Suspension first, then brakes or diffs pending budget in my opinion.

 

All the best with the build., there is a lot of info out there, however it isn't all in one place which makes it a bit difficult to sift through.

 

Edited July 27, 2016 by squareznboxez
forgot the fueling upgrades for power build

[Lithium]

2 hours ago, TXSquirrel said:

I didn't know Australian horsepower is its own thing and different from other standard measurements LOL

 

 

2 hours ago, r32-25t said:

American dynos tend to read stupidly higher then ours and it's become a bit of a running joke 

 

Can confirm, Australian dynos read really low compared to most dynos around the world and while there are a lot of knowledgable and generally good dudes on here - the fact they have inconsistent and USUALLY low reading dynos seems to be a point of pride and you have to tolerate a certain amount of dickheadedness now and then when posting on here and dyno figures come up.   Basically add around 10% to anything that comes from an Oz dyno (unless it's a Dynapack) to make it make sense, or subtract 10% from yours (unless it's a Mustang dyno) to avoid dickhead comments ruining the chances of a reasonable conversation when posting on here.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Lithium

[sneakey pete]

Front diff isn't a weak point in a failure sense, its a weak point in that its an open diff. If you've been around cars long at all you'll know the difference an open vs locked diff can make, so that's why it can be a good upgrade to get an upgraded diff centre in there. Note that you can't do the diff centre swap without taking the sump off, which is an engine out job, which is why a lot of people recommend it straight up instead of a "do it once it becomes a limit" kind of thing. Because at that point you don't want to be engine outing just to do a diff

[JGTC]

Another good thread for people building a car with twins

http://www.sau.com.au/forums/topic/236467-definitive-guide-to-building-300-330awkw-gt-r/?page=1

 

[TXSquirrel]

Thank you all very much for the feedback and comments!  I try to save money on labor cost, so for now I focus on upgrades that can be done with engine in.

- Turbos and elbows are first, as I already have full Reimax exhaust.  Is this a job I can attempt by myself with hand tools?  Do the manifolds need to come out?

- Cam gears.  Is there a difference between brands?  I see Tomei cam gears to be quite a bit cheaper than HKS.

- Fuel injectors.  There is a huge price difference for JDM brands, and I am struggling to decide.  A set of Deatschwerks 550cc is $400 USD, but a set of NIsmo 550cc will cost me $650 USD.  Do brands make that much of a difference for injectors?  (I have a Nismo pump installed already)

- ECU.  This is a big road block for me.  I really want to get Haltech, but the only shop in town that tunes Haltech has the worst reputation.  Another shop has wonderful reputation but they strictly do Nistune.  So do I go with a good tuner using old tech or a bad tuner using new tech...?

The issue with dyno numbers is common, and it has more to do with dyno machine brands.  Would be silly if the same car on the same Mustang Dyno produced a different number in the US than in Australia right? (actually would be lower in the US because of the crappy petrol we have)  DynoJet is the most popular brand of dyno here, and the rule of thumb is to take 10-15% off to match a Mustang Dyno.

Edited July 27, 2016 by TXSquirrel

[JGTC]

7 hours ago, TXSquirrel said:

- Turbos and elbows are first, as I already have full Reimax exhaust.  Is this a job I can attempt by myself with hand tools?  Do the manifolds need to come out?

I would imagine the manifolds are simple enough once the turbos have made their way out, good time to port match the outlets to suit your turbos also. 

 

7 hours ago, TXSquirrel said:

- Cam gears.  Is there a difference between brands?  I see Tomei cam gears to be quite a bit cheaper than HKS.

Go with the Tomei, they are proven performers, there were some issues with previous gen HKS cam gears, with weakness in both the gear teeth and the tri-spoke design.

7 hours ago, TXSquirrel said:

- Fuel injectors.  There is a huge price difference for JDM brands, and I am struggling to decide.  A set of Deatschwerks 550cc is $400 USD, but a set of NIsmo 550cc will cost me $650 USD.  Do brands make that much of a difference for injectors?  (I have a Nismo pump installed already)

The Deatschwerks are good units, lots of good feedback in the US, save the 150 for elsewhere.

 

7 hours ago, TXSquirrel said:

- ECU.  This is a big road block for me.  I really want to get Haltech, but the only shop in town that tunes Haltech has the worst reputation.  Another shop has wonderful reputation but they strictly do Nistune.  So do I go with a good tuner using old tech or a bad tuner using new tech...?

Always go with the better tuner over hardware, Nistune is a fantastic option which many workshops in Aus use this ECU, you will save about $1500 on the unit cost alone, which you can utlise elsewhere.  There is some difference under the 4-500hp mark, but not enough to warrant the cost if on a budget.

[Lithium]

8 hours ago, TXSquirrel said:

- ECU.  This is a big road block for me.  I really want to get Haltech, but the only shop in town that tunes Haltech has the worst reputation.  Another shop has wonderful reputation but they strictly do Nistune.  So do I go with a good tuner using old tech or a bad tuner using new tech...?

The issue with dyno numbers is common, and it has more to do with dyno machine brands.  Would be silly if the same car on the same Mustang Dyno produced a different number in the US than in Australia right? (actually would be lower in the US because of the crappy petrol we have)  DynoJet is the most popular brand of dyno here, and the rule of thumb is to take 10-15% off to match a Mustang Dyno.

Considered a Link ECU? 

Australia itself doesn't get worse readings, its just they use Mainline (which probably read closest to Mustang) and Dyno Dynamics (which read a bit lower again) predominantly so as a general rule most of the results end up lower.  American fuel is very comparable with what we get in NZ/Oz - I think there are very few countries which get better than our ~97-98RON (what you guys call ~93).

[sneakey pete]

I was under the impression that all of japan and europe get 100RON aswell

 

I'll say this: don't get too hung up on Japanese brands. A few of them make a few good things (tomei oil pump, nismo twin plate) but a lot of them make a lot of overpriced stuff that isn't that great. (injectors, turbos etc :P) Takes a bit of googling to figure it all out but it will pay off in money saved and a superior performance

[Lithium]

2 hours ago, sneakey pete said:

I was under the impression that all of japan and europe get 100RON aswell

Pfft they don't count, they don't tend to post on English speaking forums!

And yeah sorry was going to add that, very good point - I don't know why people get hung up on Jap brands!

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Look into ECU Master USA. They have plug kits for RBs.

Built in LSU 4.2 controller full sequential injection and ignitor and there will be more workshops available with the knowledge because after all, it's from your country.

And.. if a workshop that says they can tune can't tune a Haltech,  well they should find a new job... 

 

Lastly, Nistune is awesome... it may be "older tech" but what other ECU offers full flex, launch, and boost control for 500$ with change left for hookers and blow? 

[TXSquirrel]

Thank you all for the suggestions and comments.  

Hmmm looks like only Haltech and Nistune can work with MAF, all the other ECUs will require running a separate MAP sensor.  I think I am leaning more toward Nistune now.  The local workshop that tunes Nistune is an official authorized dealer, but wow they charge $650 USD for a package, that's a 50% markup.

So a follow up question.  Can the stock narrow crank and oil pump survive the dyno tune?  

[r32-25t]

Why would you want to keep the air flow meters? They are old now and tend to go faulty fairly often and for the sake of running a vacuum hose its cheap insurance

the short nose crank will be fine as long as you don't limiter bash the engine 

[TXSquirrel]

2 hours ago, r32-25t said:

Why would you want to keep the air flow meters? They are old now and tend to go faulty fairly often and for the sake of running a vacuum hose its cheap insurance

the short nose crank will be fine as long as you don't limiter bash the engine 

I want to keep my engine bay looking completely stock, so I plan to keep the stock air box as well.  (yeah stupid I know)  I do plan to upgrade to Z32 MAFs, since they are abundant here and fairly cheap.

I don't think during a dyno tune will get close to limiter.  However I recall reading elsewhere to keep under 6k rpm during dyno to avoid disaster, or is that just a myth?

 

[Piggaz]

Leave the MAF in their place and don't use them.

 

[sneakey pete]

Z32s don't really fit on the stock air box either.

The 6000rpm thing seems weird z the failures for the short nose fea n usually seem to be a result of limiter bashing giving shock loading 

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Haltech doesn't use the AFMs, you still need to run a vac feed to the ECU or run an external sensor (which I prefer to do).

There's an option to run the afm, but why would you? I don't think anyone has every bothered to even try that (including myself).

[r32-25t]

My airflow meters are still in the car but they are switched off

[TXSquirrel]

Is there a lot of disadvantages tuning with airflow meter?  Like slow response or inaccurate measurement?  My main goal really is to get good and quick responsive low end, and top end output is just secondary.

I thought Haltech could work on airflow meter without additional vacuum line, at least that's what it reads like on their website.  I guess that leaves me only Nistune.

I have been told at another forum to keep under 6k rpm at all times if I have stock short nose crank, so the thought of a dyno tune really terrified me!