Jump to content
SAU Community

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 65
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

I did talk to a guy who did pre turbo on his vl and he got really good power gains from it. Reckons he had no visible wear on the blades, though im not sure how long he had it running for. He mentioned the trick was to have the injector positioned inside the middle of the intake so it sprays directly into the centre of the wheel rather then coming in from the side. I couldnt figure if that would make much difference since it would get sucked in whereever it ended up. But who knows unless you try for yourself right.

One of those WI companies said all methanol or mostly methanol was the best way for pre turbo as its softer and therefore doesnt impact the compressor as hard as water.

Suggest having a trawl around on this site: http://www.waterinjection.info/ Sponsored by Aquamist, but there is not a demand that all discussions be centred around that product. There is even a longish thread with pics on a Pommy GTR using WI.

I see it as a bandaid and just another thing to go wrong...

If your looking for a drop in intake temps or keeping your stock cooler from heat soaking, just run a simple spray of water over the front of the cooler while your on the track. Activate it on boost (10psi pressure switch).

If you run out of water or the nozle gets blocked, your not going to burn up your engine.

J.

I see the above as more of a bandaid fix. we run water spray on one of our circuit cars and have found since data logging the intake coolant and oil temps that it is crutial to put the misters in the right place and its not where you would think.

another local car used to have water spray. then added the water meth getting good results and has now removed the water spray.

water spray also doenst give any where near the actual performance gains seen by water meth.

so engine reliability and performance gains is hardly a band aid.

not having a go just pointing out that i have data to show the gains one on one.

He mentioned the trick was to have the injector positioned inside the middle of the intake so it sprays directly into the centre of the wheel rather then coming in from the side. I couldnt figure if that would make much difference since it would get sucked in whereever it ended up. But who knows unless you try for yourself right.

lol ye i cannot see how it would make any diff anyway. The air is being moved around by the compressor anyhow to the end of it so its going over the blades no matter where it "comes" from :)

the pre-injection turbo dilemma does your head in.. some people say to direct a hollow cone shape spray cm's away from the centre of the compressor wheel..

interestingly enough, rice racing does the opposite and mount it back further and use a nozzle that sprays both liquid and air.. which is meant to split the droplets up much finer than the other sites claim they can do.. i think it basically works like a spray painters gun

yeh just looking through the rx7 forums, fark all they are using is a boost solonoid, a tank, a nozzle and some lines..

would any of you's be able to post up some pics of your setup's.. in particular how its mounted in the boot, and how you get the lines out the boot and into the engine bay... is there any tricks??

Cheers

Jarrod

The best system on the market is the Aquamist HSF-3 - http://howertonengineering.com/Aquamist_hfs3.html

Currently have one sitting next to me, will be installed soon i promise!!! :down:

What makes it different to other water-methanol injection setups is that it is the first reasonable priced PWM-valve delivery system.

Meaning, the pump keeps a constant pressure of 160psi in the lines and the nozzle opens and closes to spray into the engine. (works exactly like a fuel injector system)

Majority of other systems on the market operate by the pump turning on to spray. This causes an uneven spray pattern and poor atomisation due to the low pressure in the lines.

The HSF-3 system also controls amount of spray by injector duty cycle which is far more accurate as boost controlled sprayers tend to spray less at top end. (Because boost always tapers off at high revs when you should be spraying more!)

Typical Pump on/off spray system:

http://s1013.photobucket.com/albums/af255/...rrent=PPS-S.flv

Aquamist PWM spray system:

http://s1013.photobucket.com/albums/af255/...rrent=PWM-V.flv

Cons are it is one of the more expensive systems on the market but definitely worth the cost

Methanol can be purchased from any race fuel shop, problem is 100% methanol is very toxic to touch, breath, drink

50:50 water/methanol is safe to handle but im still trying to find someone who sells a pre-mix solution.

In the U.S people use window washer fluid because thats made of water, methanol and blue dye. Have been looking around autobarn etc but cant seem to find any window washer fluid which states the contents.

Another option is water/ethanol, but ethanol has high tax.

Another option is methylated spiitrs (98% ethanol 2% methanol) but there is usually other additives added so its risky to use unless you know for certain what has been added.

Ideally you would want a storage tank of 10% of your fuel tank. So a 6Ltr~ water/methanol tank will keep you going for 1 tank of petrol. Obviously depending how you drive.

Proper tanks with baffling and anti-slush setups must be investigated to stop any starvation. The aquamist hsf-3 comes with a Flow meter. If it detects zero flow, the system turns into safe mode and can be wired to ground your boost controller etc.

Video of a tank with baffle;

http://howertonengineering.com/Tech%20Info...Eng_Baffles.MOV

Sumped tank;

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/2-5-gallo...d-tank-346.html

all the things you are listing (except the baffled tanks) snow performance have been doing for a while, my kit (which was 3rd hand when i got it) has solenoid controlled flow based on boost pressure (albeit not in the nozzle itself)

More info can be found here;

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1413320

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1393721

The differences between a

PWM -V system (same as OE fuel injection system)

and

PPS system (Progressive Pump Speed).

Who manufactures what?

- Devilsown, Snow, Coolingmist and Labonte make PPS systems.

- Aquamist and FJO are the only manufacturer making the PWM-V system.

Delivery method:

- PPS system: controls flow by changing pump speed.

- PWM-V system: controls flow by pulsing an inline valve (same principle as the OE fuel injection system)

How a PWM-V system operates:

PWM-VA2.gif

I see the above as more of a bandaid fix. we run water spray on one of our circuit cars and have found since data logging the intake coolant and oil temps that it is crutial to put the misters in the right place and its not where you would think.

another local car used to have water spray. then added the water meth getting good results and has now removed the water spray.

water spray also doenst give any where near the actual performance gains seen by water meth.

so engine reliability and performance gains is hardly a band aid.

not having a go just pointing out that i have data to show the gains one on one.

A water spray kit on an intercooler, is a bandaid (unless your in a burnout comp etc..) to cover up the lack of intercooler efficiency- I agree. But if he sticks with the stock cooler and it heat soaks, the only way to bring the temps down is to either stop driving so hard, or spray it down.

Obviously a propper water meth injection kit is going to work way better than an external spray kit, but if the external spray kit stops working he's not going to loose an engine...

Air temp correction tables, low water level warning lights/alarms, flow alarms, low line pressure alarms etc... are all reactive- they may work fast enough to stop the motor detonating in the event of injection failure- they may not? The technology is there and is much better then 10 years ago when I did my first MWI kit on a red top rb20- but technology needs to be costantly tested to remain reliable.

How often do you test the sensors, switches and tables? Methanol becomes gluggy after a while of sitting around, especially when mixed with water. Also it's not so bad on a track car, but if it's a street car then it's going to get alot more work and the operator is less likely to test sensors/be monitoring guages/notice a knock then become more complacent.

I'm not against it, WMI has it's place... I just dont like having to rely on ANOTHER seperate system to keep my engine together.

Cheers

J.

PS If you wan't lower intake temps and a power gain, look at a low hp nitrous oxide kit... A well set up 25hp shot can supprise you. I used to run a 50hp shot just to lower the air temps while drag racing.

Some good info there Rekin, i originally dismissed Aquamist since i seen a guy flow test, what may of been of a older style pump and with a 2 nozzle setup could only get a max of 320cc/min, but i just seen on the site they claim the new pumps run out of flow at 1600cc.. i really do like their tanks.. but i dont like the idea of the pump always being on? or does it just come on n off enough to leave the lines pressurised.

Snow Performance claim they're nozzles get good atomization, even at low pressures.. im not worried about the pressure when it starts, but im a little concerned when i lift off the throttle quickly and put it back on (like when your spinnin tyres playing with the throttle), that with the amount im planning to inject, i may end up with way more mixture in the engine than it can handle and end up with some serious hesitation issues.. has anyone had any problems with this??

The newer 220psi pumps from these companies are meant to hold a steady 220psi.. so theoretically they shouldnt pulse as much, not sure if they will still pulse when they are still starting up...

Jarrod

A water spray kit on an intercooler, is a bandaid (unless your in a burnout comp etc..) to cover up the lack of intercooler efficiency- I agree. But if he sticks with the stock cooler and it heat soaks, the only way to bring the temps down is to either stop driving so hard, or spray it down.

Obviously a propper water meth injection kit is going to work way better than an external spray kit, but if the external spray kit stops working he's not going to loose an engine...

Air temp correction tables, low water level warning lights/alarms, flow alarms, low line pressure alarms etc... are all reactive- they may work fast enough to stop the motor detonating in the event of injection failure- they may not? The technology is there and is much better then 10 years ago when I did my first MWI kit on a red top rb20- but technology needs to be costantly tested to remain reliable.

How often do you test the sensors, switches and tables? Methanol becomes gluggy after a while of sitting around, especially when mixed with water. Also it's not so bad on a track car, but if it's a street car then it's going to get alot more work and the operator is less likely to test sensors/be monitoring guages/notice a knock then become more complacent.

I'm not against it, WMI has it's place... I just dont like having to rely on ANOTHER seperate system to keep my engine together.

Cheers

J.

PS If you wan't lower intake temps and a power gain, look at a low hp nitrous oxide kit... A well set up 25hp shot can supprise you. I used to run a 50hp shot just to lower the air temps while drag racing.

a cop looks under the bonnet/in the boot and sees a nos system and you are farked, this isnt the USA you cant have a connected nos system on the street legally no matter who you get to say its safe.

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



  • Similar Content

  • Latest Posts

    • Update 3: Hi all It's been a while. Quite a lot of things happened in the meantime, among other things the car is (almost) back together and ready to be started again. Things that I fixed or changed: Full turbo removal, fitting back the OEM turbo oil hardlines. Had to do quite a bit of research and parts shopping to get every last piece that I need and make it work with the GT2860 turbos, but it does work and is not hard to do. Proves that the previous owner(s) just did not want to. While I was there I set the preload for the wastegates to 0,9bar to hopefully make it easier for the tuner to hit the 370hp I need for the legal inspections that will follow later on. Boost can always go up if necessary. Fitted a AN10 line from the catch can to the intake hose to make the catchcan and hopefully the cam covers a slight vacuum to have less restrictive oil returns from the head and not have mud build up as harshly in the lines and catch can. Removed the entire front interior just shy of the dashboard itself to clean up some of the absolutely horrendous wiring, (hopefully) fix the bumpy tacho and put in LED bulbs while I was there. Also put in bulbs where there was none before, like the airbag one. I also used that chance to remove the LED rpm gauge on the steering column, which was also wired in absolute horror show fashion. Moved the 4in1 Prosport gauge from sitting in front of the OEM oil pressure gauge to the center console vents, I used a 3D printed vent piece to hold that gauge there. The HKB steering wheel boss was likely on incorrectly as I sometimes noticed the indicator reset being uneven for left vs. right. In the meantime also installed an airbag delete resistor, as one should. Installed Cube Speed premium short shifter. Feels pretty nice, hope it'll work great too when I actually get to drive. Also put on a fancy Dragon Ball shift knob, cause why not. My buddy was kind enough to weld the rust hole in the back, it was basically rusted through in the lowermost corner of the passenger side trunk area where the wheel arch, trunk panel and rear quarter all meet. Obviously there is still a lot of crustiness in various areas but as long as it's not rusted out I'll just treat and isolate the corrosion and pretend it's not there. Also had to put down a new ground wire for the rear subframe as the original one was BARELY there. Probably a bit controversial depending on who you ask about this... but I ended up just covering the crack in the side of the engine block, the one above the oil feed, with JB Weld. I used a generous amount and roughed up the whole area with a Dremel before, so I hope this will hold the coolant where it should be for the foreseeable future. Did a cam cover gasket job as the half moons were a bit leaky, and there too one could see the people who worked on this car before me were absolute tools. The same half moons were probably used like 3 times without even cleaning the old RTV off. Dremeled out the inside of the flange where the turbine housing mates onto the exhaust manifolds so the diameter matches, as the OEM exhaust manifolds are even narrower than the turbine housings as we all know. Even if this doesn't do much, I had them out anyways, so can't harm. Ideally one would port-match both the turbo and the manifold to the gasket size but I really didn't feel up to disassembling the turbine housings. Wrapped turbo outlet dumps in heat wrap band. Will do the frontpipe again as well as now the oil leak which promted me to tear apart half the engine in the first place is hopefully fixed. Fitted an ATI super damper to get rid of the worn old harmonic balancer. Surely one of the easiest and most worth to do mods. But torquing that ARP bolt to spec was a bitch without being able to lock the flywheel. Did some minor adjustments in the ECU tables to change some things I didn't like, like the launch control that was ALWAYS active. Treated rusty spots and surface corrosion on places I could get to and on many spots under the car, not pretty or ideal but good enough for now. Removed the N1 rear spats and the carbon surrounding for the tailpipe to put them back on with new adhesive as the old one was lifting in many spots, not pretty. Took out the passenger rear lamp housing... what do you know. Amateur work screwed me again here as they were glued in hard and removing it took a lot of force, so I broke one of the housing bolts off. And when removing the adhesive from the chassis the paint came right off too. Thankfully all the damaged area won't be visible later, but whoever did the very limited bodywork on this car needs to have their limbs chopped off piece by piece.   Quite a list if I do say so myself, but a lot of time was spent just discovering new shit that is wrong with the car and finding a solution or parts to fix it. My last problem that I now have the headache of dealing with is that the exhaust studs on the turbo outlets are M10x1.25 threaded, but the previous owner already put on regular M10 nuts so the threads are... weird. I only found this out the hard way. So now I will just try if I can in any way fit the front pipe regardless, if not I'll have to redo the studs with the turbos installed. Lesson learned for the future: Redo ALL studs you put your hands on, especially if they are old and the previous owners were inept maniacs. Thanks for reading if you did, will update when the engine runs again. Hope nothing breaks or leaks and I can do a test drive.
    • No those pads are DBA too  but they have colors too. I look at the and imo the green "street" are the best.
    • I’m not sure what happened I told them about sonic tunes free OTS tune and the next the I know .. I was booted..   To funny 
    • Yea - I mean I've seen my fuel pump which is decades old and uh, while I'm not saying this with real knowledge... but I sure get the ick at using anything in the fuel system that produced the state of that pump. Many years ago I went through multiple pumps (and strainers) before I dropped the tank to clean it out with extreme violence. I'm talking the car would do maybe 50km before coming to a halt, which resulted in me cleaning out the filter with some brake cleaner and going on my way. None of my stuff ever looked like what came out of your fuel tank. I don't think I'd be happy with it unless every single component was replaced (or at least checked/cleaned/confirmed to be clean here).
    • I'm not going to recommend an EBC pad. I don't like them. Just about anything else would suit me better. I've been using Intima pads for a while now.
×
×
  • Create New...