Water/meth Injection

[TiTAN]

pre turbo injection does have its down sides, wear on the compressor blades is the main one. i run mine ~15-20cm from the throttle body.

[Tonba]

The water also increases compression. Becareful with water injected pre-compressor as you WILL get damage to the blades. To avoid most damage, only use 100% meth pre-compressor.

[zebra]

If you run a VERY fine mist pre turbo you should be ok, I have seen a WMI setup that sprayed straight into a centrifugal superchager inlet and it machined slots in the comp blades lol

[TiTAN]

even with a very fine mist it will do damage over time. its easier to just inject post turbo.

[zebra]

You are probably right lol

Id be keen to see results Pre intercooler though, but you run the risk of it pooling in the low points of the pipe work and the cooler itself.

[r33_racer]

I did talk to a guy who did pre turbo on his vl and he got really good power gains from it. Reckons he had no visible wear on the blades, though im not sure how long he had it running for. He mentioned the trick was to have the injector positioned inside the middle of the intake so it sprays directly into the centre of the wheel rather then coming in from the side. I couldnt figure if that would make much difference since it would get sucked in whereever it ended up. But who knows unless you try for yourself right.

One of those WI companies said all methanol or mostly methanol was the best way for pre turbo as its softer and therefore doesnt impact the compressor as hard as water.

[Dale FZ1]

Suggest having a trawl around on this site: http://www.waterinjection.info/ Sponsored by Aquamist, but there is not a demand that all discussions be centred around that product. There is even a longish thread with pics on a Pommy GTR using WI.

[DJRIFT]

I see it as a bandaid and just another thing to go wrong...

If your looking for a drop in intake temps or keeping your stock cooler from heat soaking, just run a simple spray of water over the front of the cooler while your on the track. Activate it on boost (10psi pressure switch).

If you run out of water or the nozle gets blocked, your not going to burn up your engine.

J.

I see the above as more of a bandaid fix. we run water spray on one of our circuit cars and have found since data logging the intake coolant and oil temps that it is crutial to put the misters in the right place and its not where you would think.

another local car used to have water spray. then added the water meth getting good results and has now removed the water spray.

water spray also doenst give any where near the actual performance gains seen by water meth.

so engine reliability and performance gains is hardly a band aid.

not having a go just pointing out that i have data to show the gains one on one.

[R31Nismoid]

He mentioned the trick was to have the injector positioned inside the middle of the intake so it sprays directly into the centre of the wheel rather then coming in from the side. I couldnt figure if that would make much difference since it would get sucked in whereever it ended up. But who knows unless you try for yourself right.

lol ye i cannot see how it would make any diff anyway. The air is being moved around by the compressor anyhow to the end of it so its going over the blades no matter where it "comes" from

[jarrod83]

the pre-injection turbo dilemma does your head in.. some people say to direct a hollow cone shape spray cm's away from the centre of the compressor wheel..

interestingly enough, rice racing does the opposite and mount it back further and use a nozzle that sprays both liquid and air.. which is meant to split the droplets up much finer than the other sites claim they can do.. i think it basically works like a spray painters gun

[r33_racer]

I have heard about those Y piece nozzles also. Supposed to work alot better then just a straight injector. Makes sense I guess.

[jarrod83]

yeh just looking through the rx7 forums, fark all they are using is a boost solonoid, a tank, a nozzle and some lines..

would any of you's be able to post up some pics of your setup's.. in particular how its mounted in the boot, and how you get the lines out the boot and into the engine bay... is there any tricks??

Cheers

Jarrod

[TiTAN]

i dont have any pictures of the lines going from the boot to the engine, i just drilled a hole in the boot floor, fitted a grommet, stuck the line through and ran it with the fuel lines.

[Rekin]

The best system on the market is the Aquamist HSF-3 - http://howertonengineering.com/Aquamist_hfs3.html

Currently have one sitting next to me, will be installed soon i promise!!!

What makes it different to other water-methanol injection setups is that it is the first reasonable priced PWM-valve delivery system.

Meaning, the pump keeps a constant pressure of 160psi in the lines and the nozzle opens and closes to spray into the engine. (works exactly like a fuel injector system)

Majority of other systems on the market operate by the pump turning on to spray. This causes an uneven spray pattern and poor atomisation due to the low pressure in the lines.

The HSF-3 system also controls amount of spray by injector duty cycle which is far more accurate as boost controlled sprayers tend to spray less at top end. (Because boost always tapers off at high revs when you should be spraying more!)

Typical Pump on/off spray system:

http://s1013.photobucket.com/albums/af255/...rrent=PPS-S.flv

Aquamist PWM spray system:

http://s1013.photobucket.com/albums/af255/...rrent=PWM-V.flv

Cons are it is one of the more expensive systems on the market but definitely worth the cost

[Rekin]

Methanol can be purchased from any race fuel shop, problem is 100% methanol is very toxic to touch, breath, drink

50:50 water/methanol is safe to handle but im still trying to find someone who sells a pre-mix solution.

In the U.S people use window washer fluid because thats made of water, methanol and blue dye. Have been looking around autobarn etc but cant seem to find any window washer fluid which states the contents.

Another option is water/ethanol, but ethanol has high tax.

Another option is methylated spiitrs (98% ethanol 2% methanol) but there is usually other additives added so its risky to use unless you know for certain what has been added.

Ideally you would want a storage tank of 10% of your fuel tank. So a 6Ltr~ water/methanol tank will keep you going for 1 tank of petrol. Obviously depending how you drive.

Proper tanks with baffling and anti-slush setups must be investigated to stop any starvation. The aquamist hsf-3 comes with a Flow meter. If it detects zero flow, the system turns into safe mode and can be wired to ground your boost controller etc.

Video of a tank with baffle;

http://howertonengineering.com/Tech%20Info...Eng_Baffles.MOV

Sumped tank;

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/2-5-gallo...d-tank-346.html

[TiTAN]

all the things you are listing (except the baffled tanks) snow performance have been doing for a while, my kit (which was 3rd hand when i got it) has solenoid controlled flow based on boost pressure (albeit not in the nozzle itself)

[Rekin]

More info can be found here;

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1413320

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1393721

The differences between a

PWM -V system (same as OE fuel injection system)

and

PPS system (Progressive Pump Speed).

Who manufactures what?

- Devilsown, Snow, Coolingmist and Labonte make PPS systems.

- Aquamist and FJO are the only manufacturer making the PWM-V system.

Delivery method:

- PPS system: controls flow by changing pump speed.

- PWM-V system: controls flow by pulsing an inline valve (same principle as the OE fuel injection system)

How a PWM-V system operates:

[XRATED]

I see the above as more of a bandaid fix. we run water spray on one of our circuit cars and have found since data logging the intake coolant and oil temps that it is crutial to put the misters in the right place and its not where you would think.

another local car used to have water spray. then added the water meth getting good results and has now removed the water spray.

water spray also doenst give any where near the actual performance gains seen by water meth.

so engine reliability and performance gains is hardly a band aid.

not having a go just pointing out that i have data to show the gains one on one.

A water spray kit on an intercooler, is a bandaid (unless your in a burnout comp etc..) to cover up the lack of intercooler efficiency- I agree. But if he sticks with the stock cooler and it heat soaks, the only way to bring the temps down is to either stop driving so hard, or spray it down.

Obviously a propper water meth injection kit is going to work way better than an external spray kit, but if the external spray kit stops working he's not going to loose an engine...

Air temp correction tables, low water level warning lights/alarms, flow alarms, low line pressure alarms etc... are all reactive- they may work fast enough to stop the motor detonating in the event of injection failure- they may not? The technology is there and is much better then 10 years ago when I did my first MWI kit on a red top rb20- but technology needs to be costantly tested to remain reliable.

How often do you test the sensors, switches and tables? Methanol becomes gluggy after a while of sitting around, especially when mixed with water. Also it's not so bad on a track car, but if it's a street car then it's going to get alot more work and the operator is less likely to test sensors/be monitoring guages/notice a knock then become more complacent.

I'm not against it, WMI has it's place... I just dont like having to rely on ANOTHER seperate system to keep my engine together.

Cheers

J.

PS If you wan't lower intake temps and a power gain, look at a low hp nitrous oxide kit... A well set up 25hp shot can supprise you. I used to run a 50hp shot just to lower the air temps while drag racing.

[jarrod83]

Some good info there Rekin, i originally dismissed Aquamist since i seen a guy flow test, what may of been of a older style pump and with a 2 nozzle setup could only get a max of 320cc/min, but i just seen on the site they claim the new pumps run out of flow at 1600cc.. i really do like their tanks.. but i dont like the idea of the pump always being on? or does it just come on n off enough to leave the lines pressurised.

Snow Performance claim they're nozzles get good atomization, even at low pressures.. im not worried about the pressure when it starts, but im a little concerned when i lift off the throttle quickly and put it back on (like when your spinnin tyres playing with the throttle), that with the amount im planning to inject, i may end up with way more mixture in the engine than it can handle and end up with some serious hesitation issues.. has anyone had any problems with this??

The newer 220psi pumps from these companies are meant to hold a steady 220psi.. so theoretically they shouldnt pulse as much, not sure if they will still pulse when they are still starting up...

Jarrod

[TiTAN]

A water spray kit on an intercooler, is a bandaid (unless your in a burnout comp etc..) to cover up the lack of intercooler efficiency- I agree. But if he sticks with the stock cooler and it heat soaks, the only way to bring the temps down is to either stop driving so hard, or spray it down.

Obviously a propper water meth injection kit is going to work way better than an external spray kit, but if the external spray kit stops working he's not going to loose an engine...

Air temp correction tables, low water level warning lights/alarms, flow alarms, low line pressure alarms etc... are all reactive- they may work fast enough to stop the motor detonating in the event of injection failure- they may not? The technology is there and is much better then 10 years ago when I did my first MWI kit on a red top rb20- but technology needs to be costantly tested to remain reliable.

How often do you test the sensors, switches and tables? Methanol becomes gluggy after a while of sitting around, especially when mixed with water. Also it's not so bad on a track car, but if it's a street car then it's going to get alot more work and the operator is less likely to test sensors/be monitoring guages/notice a knock then become more complacent.

I'm not against it, WMI has it's place... I just dont like having to rely on ANOTHER seperate system to keep my engine together.

Cheers

J.

PS If you wan't lower intake temps and a power gain, look at a low hp nitrous oxide kit... A well set up 25hp shot can supprise you. I used to run a 50hp shot just to lower the air temps while drag racing.

a cop looks under the bonnet/in the boot and sees a nos system and you are farked, this isnt the USA you cant have a connected nos system on the street legally no matter who you get to say its safe.