GCG or HKS 25** Turbo

[drunkenmaster]

why is it when HKS showcase a new turbo design at an autosalon, that isnt quite ready for production, that garrett dont showcase it instead?  esp if garrett are fully responsible for it.

Because garrett's target market isn't the aftermarket boy racer where as HKS's is?

Garrett supply to a much larger market than the aftermarket industry and I sincerely doubt HKS have much OEM input in the scheme of things, certainly pale in comparison to garrett.

I am/have worked for 2 of the largest suppliers to the automotive industry in Australia, probably the world, and I can assure you neither of them could care less about showcasing anything at autosalon.

I think too many people put faith into the supposed extensive R&D performed by the japanese aftermarket industry, I am not sure where they get their facts or ideas from in this area.

Sure they supply good products, any good business around the world will, but blind faith is a dangerous thing.

[ed]

I thought manufacturers sent cars to the tuning shops so when their car is released, there is already a range of aftermarket parts for it. Making the car more enticing to buy.

[Steve]

DoughBoy, sorry, never meant to imply that you were assualting SK, just like the chuffmaster comment.

so all you people who seem to think that HKS are no good, that Garrett generic brand turbos are just fine - ask yourself, if someone offered you a Garrett GT30 of your choice, or a HKS 3037S 56T to fit to your RB25, which would you take?

I will take a proven product any day over someones guess work, or a broad market product. but hey, each to their own.

And as for Keir being sponsored by Trust, didnt know that, but if so, how did he get there? with trust turbos.

Munros 3L is still not on the road, so what it 'may' do in the future is not really valid IMHO.

I was merely using them as examples, just as Try09 was.

[B-Man]

Hi Steve - In the above , are the Garrett and HKS turbos the same price ?

[drunkenmaster]

so all you people who seem to think that HKS are no good, that Garrett generic brand turbos are just fine - ask yourself, if someone offered you a Garrett GT30 of your choice, or a HKS 3037S 56T to fit to your RB25, which would you take?

I see what you mean now, I think the lines were blurred between suitability and quality.

I think just because HKS take some of the guess work out of the Garrett range, doesnt mean that they will be automatically better suited for individual applications, but certainly easier for Joe Schmoe

[DoughBoy]

As I said, my new motor has a pair of custom Garrett's ready to go on it, I felt that I could put together a combo that was better suited to the particular engine + what I intend to do with it than an off the shelf turbo available from HKS or Garrett.

If the budget allowed it I would have gone with a pair of Innovative Turbos, with titanium compressor wheels.... but I'm a cheapskate.

Oh and I don't think TRY-09S is a valid example, that car should have gone alot quicker imo, and everyone knows nitrous is just a bandaid for poor tuning

[Guest Robo's]

Im looking at getting a small HKS for a very cheap price, might be worth mucking around with, will let you know how i go.

[Roy]

Didnt Keir Wilson kill his TD05s-> hence the step up to TD06-20gs, then kill them-> hence the step up to TD06-25gs...can anyone confirm this?

Innovative Turbos, titanium comrpessor or exhaust, or both?

[BOOSTD]

How about a Turbonetics Ceramic Bearing turbos. They need 50% less power to spool resulting in ultra fast spoolup and are stronger and more reliable than ball bearing.

FAQ @ Turboneticsinc

Q: Do the ceramic ball-bearing turbos "spool up" faster than a normal turbo?

A: YES! The ceramic ball-bearing design reduces the frictional loss that occurs with a conventional floating bearing-and-thrust system turbo. The ceramic ball-bearing design allows the turbo to accelerate much quicker, thus decreasing spool-up time. In most cases we have found our ceramic ball-bearing designs require 50 percent less energy to drive the turbo.

Turbonetics created the ceramic ball bearing turbocharger for durability. By utilizing a single, ceramic, angular-contact ball bearing on the compressor side instead of the more common bronze piece, the ball bearing can absorb the thrust loading that all too often can lead to turbo failure in high performance gas applications. The Turbonetics ceramic ball bearing turbo can withstand up to 50 times the thrust load capacity, compared to a conventional floating bearing unit.

*Dual ball bearing turbos can only withstand 2-3 times more thrust loading than standard turbos.

TURBONETICS CERAMIC BALL-BEARING turbochargers are winning races and setting new records all over the world. Rapid “spool up”, excellent transient response and unequalled durability combine to make the CERAMIC BALL-BEARING turbo the ULTIMATE TURBOCHARGER for successful race-cars and boats on tracks everywhere.

The NASA inspired angular contact, CERAMIC BALL-BEARING design (Patent pending) practically eliminates thrust bearing and operational surge failures. The CERAMIC BALL-BEARING system can safely handle 50 TIMES more thrust loading than conventional turbochargers, making it ideal for severe transients and extreme pressure ratio applications.

[rb20-calais]

sounds good

[discopotato03]

To solve ALL the Garrett/HKS arguments :

1) All Garrett and HKS BB turbos are built by Garrett Japan .

2) Garrett does all R and D on ALL compressor wheels and turbines .

3) Because in the past there were no spares for BB turbos no one could mix and

match compressors and turbines to duplicate HKS combinations .

4) HKS do custom make some exhaust housings to optomise their cartrige

combinations ie T25 flange .73AR GT30 housing for the HKS GT3037 series .

Why would Garrett bother to make this housing when there is no OEM application .

5) Once we get to the HKS GT3037 stage the playing field levels out . The core of the

Garrett GT30R is identical to the 3037 56 trim , in fact you can buy the GT30R and

whichever HKS exhaust housing seperatly and save heaps . In the smaller Nissan

specific range you can buy a turbo called the GT28RS (see Brett at GCG) which

has a slightly superior result than the HKS GT2530 ( same turbine fractionally

better compressor) for the T25/28 flange . I personally don't like the HKS 2835

series as they use a cut down GT30 turbine which flows well but not efficiently

(laggy) . Garrett has just recently come up with the GT3071R (should really be

called GT3035R because it uses a GT30 turbine/GT35 compressor) which should

work better , but are not integrally waste gated . It can be optioned with

T25/28 or T3 flange exhaust housings , perfect for external gate RB25DET .

So there you have it . Do not panic if you can't afford the expensive blue label .

There are Garrett alternatives . Do some research , learn what the different

turbine and compressor families are (and what combinations are good

together) and seek the closest Garrett item . Remember , there are no HKS

specific wheels , only their combinations .

Research sites Garrett Catalogue , HKS USA , ATP Turbo.com etc . The USA

are more awake up to these things than we are here .

[BOOSTD]

isn't the GT28 affectionately known as a Disco Potato..

The GT3071R has the same compressor(71mm) as the GT2835Pro but larger 60mm turbine....wouldn't it spool up later than the HKS item.. In what way is it better... is the 60mm GT35 turbine that much more efficient that it spools earlier than the cut down GT30....

cheers matt

From ATP TURBO

Turbo is the newest addition to the Garrett Ball Bearing Line up. It fills in the requirements for small displacement 4 cyl. engines and has a excellent response characteristics. It spools up 1,000 RPM sooner than the older GT30R. The Dual Ball Bearing GT3071R Turbo comes assembled with T3 style turbine housing with T3 inlet flange. Turbine housing style available in Standard GT or with T3/T4 Ford Style 5 bolt turbine housing. Compressor housing is T04E frame size with 2.00 outlet. Compressor inlet is available with 2.75 or 4.00 inlet.

[Steve]

Hmm, thanks for clearing all that up. NOT

Nice research, but I dont think you quite went far enough.

New cartridge ~ $1400-1500

New exhaust housing ~ $500-600 (bought over seas, in aust you will pay $880 for a HKS GT30 exhaust housing)

So now we are over $2000 and we still need a new compressor housing, and compressor wheel - then we need to get the whole thing balanced.

Not so cheap anymore is it.

The fact that HKS use garrett CHRAs is not new - that has been common knowledge for a long time.

Also, if you think the HKS2835 is laggy, perhaps you should tell grepins R33 to stop coming on boost so quick - it isnt laggy.

Oh, and garrett dont make a .73, .87 or .61 for any GT30 turbo, why? because they are HKS only items - garrett have their own size housings that they make for as you put it OEM applications. I think that hit it on the head, OEM, not performance.

And I must ask if you can explain, if garrett do all the turbo research, why do nissan give cars to HKS for turbo research, instead of garrett?

[Roy]

... if garrett do all the turbo research, why do nissan give cars to HKS for turbo research, instead of garrett?

Steve, can you name your source for this tidbit of info, perhaps the series of car that HKS developed a Nissan turbo for?

[Steve]

Speed magazine in an article by Martin, to quote

(HKS) a company that openly shares turbo technology with Nissan..

interestingly where the HKS Zed uses a HKS-branded aftermarket turbocharger, this skyline uses two very OEM-looking Garrett units.

The article was talking about a 350Z HKS were developing an aftermarket turbo kit for, and a G35 coupe, that was in a developemental form, at the Kyuushu HKS factory. It was stated also that the G35 had a

factory imposed 0.4bar of boost

It was asked also to keep things low keyed with the G35 - more secrecy. why would HKS care if anybody looked at the car? why would an OEM looking turbocharged developemental car be sitting at HKS Kyuushu's factory, tucked away in a corner, and all HKS staff being very cagey about it, unless it was under developement? Obviously it was under developement. Why would a factory like HKS develope OEM looking turbo kits? well it wouldnt be for HKS to put on the shelf.

an interesting article.

[Roy]

It was asked also to keep things low keyed with the G35 - more secrecy.  why would HKS care if anybody looked at the car?  why would an OEM looking turbocharged developemental car be sitting at HKS Kyuushu's factory, tucked away in a corner, and all HKS staff being very cagey about it, unless it was under developement?  Obviously it was under developement.  Why would a factory like HKS develope OEM looking turbo kits?  well it wouldnt be for HKS to put on the shelf.

I dont know, and i dont think one article in Speed makes it fact, of course i could be wrong....what does an OEM Garret turbo look like anyway, GT-SS or any other T25 based turbo, if they were playing around developing a turbo, they arent likely to be putting snazy HKS badging etc on development mules:)

When i was reading that article i couldnt but help think to myslef that the journalist may have been taking liberty, i enjoy reading Speed, dont get me wrong, but the content in the past has not always been that great or accurate.

If that article is the only reference to HKS developing Nissan turbos, then i wouldnt be quoting it as fact...if it were true why are the N1, Grp A turbos Nissan/Garret turbos, not HKS units or similar to HKS units.... also to the best of my knowledge none of the Nissan GT500 / GT300 cars use HKS turbos. If the Nissan / HKS relationship was so close then i would see it as strange that there turbos arent favoured by some of their race teams, dont some of the GT300 Silvias use IHI turbos?

HKS turbos are great, so are Garret turbos, there are Indy cars running Garrets, there are Pikes Peak winning cars running Garrets, GT cars in Europe running Garret turbos, to think that they are really only best suited to OEM applications is selling them short.

[ed]

I read a magazine that HKS Kansai got a EVO VII before they were released.

Does this mean HKS Kansai helped mitsubishi develop the EVO VII?

[Roy]

And as for Keir being sponsored by Trust, didnt know that, but if so, how did he get there?  with trust turbos.

...oh, and i could be wrong but didnt the TD05s pack it in, hence the upgrade to TD06-20g, where after a failure they were rebuilt... and then later updated to the TD06-25g that he is running now?

I run a Trust turbo, and am very happy with it, but i suspect Munro 2835s were much more robust/durable then the Trust turbos

...ED, i think im on the same page as you, they get pre-release cars so that the tuners can have a catalogue fo parts ready for the release of a car, more aftermarket support for a car, the more popular it will be to guys wanting to trick up a car

[benm]

I run a Trust turbo, and am very happy with it

Your car is turbo'd? I was beginning to have 2nd thoughts that night you let me drive it, that was until you told me it doesn't kick in until like 4,500rpm

Laaaaaaaaaaaaag

[Roy]

Your car is turbo'd? I was beginning to have 2nd thoughts that night you let me drive it, that was until you told me it doesn't kick in until like 4,500rpm

Laaaaaaaaaaaaag  

Its actually an NA Trust setup :confused:

.... the coil pack was playing up when you drove it, hence the piss poor idle etc etc and lag. Still not much better with the coil pack fixed, but it at least revs out mush better, hopefully when i get it tuned properly and finally dial in some static ignition response will be improved, as i have always ran heavily retarded static ignition until i can get the thing tweaked on the dyno.... to clarify it was the ignition that was retarded, the owner is just a little slow sometimes