Sau Vic Tech Night: Discussing E85, Thanks To Wolf Motorsport & Sabbadin Automotive

[NUTWGN]

Oring lube? What sort of dropkick uses petroleum jelly to fit injectors? A tiny bit of silicone spray is enough and won't ruin anything.

Sounds like it was an ethanol bashing night. Wish I had been there now to dispel the rumours.

I wouldn't have said it was ethanol bashing at all, I learnt quite a bit & didn't turn me off using or recommending e85.

[Plattsy]

That's good. There are so many idiots talking shit out there. Truth is, until you live with it, you don't know how good it really is.

[NutR33]

You missed out last night Plattsy, Rob had a cool looking Micra sitting in the back corner with a set of what looked like panasport wheels and a front lower lip on the bumper.

I could certainly see your attraction to them, it looked a fun little car.

[Plattsy]

He had a what!?!?!?! Son of a bitch! You know what colour it was man?

And if any of it was for sale lol

[scotty nm35]

I wouldn't have said it was ethanol bashing at all, I learnt quite a bit & didn't turn me off using or recommending e85

Ah good, there is so much misinformation getting about, I would hate for anyone to get the wrong idea about e85. There are a lot less drawbacks with it as a fuel source when compared to petrol, it just takes some understanding, usually on the part of the workshop doing your work, to set your car up for long term ethanol use.

I can see it's not for everyone, but long distance driving is the worst of it with reduced range and lack of pumps. These are easily overcome of course, and will be less of an issue as e85 works it's way into the market.

yeah.

thats why i use 98 from one chain of petrol stations.

im glad E85 is regulated (from Nov 2012) but when United are only supposed to tell you the ethanol content, i was surprised that United wont tell you the RON rating. and when the ethanol content is down to 70% during winter months, I wonder what the RON would be then? for safety you would want a flex fuel meter guiding the ECU to make sure the mixtures are consistent with the fuel (at least i would anyway)

im not bagging the fuel, just playing devils advocate because its not for everyones budget or application.

I have been running ethanol for many years and on many tunes. We have played with fuel mixtures extensively, sometimes running 20:1 on cruise, while monitoring exhaust temps, oil temps, torque outputs, drivability etc, I have never had any issues with any of my tunes be it on the road or track. The fuel allows you to tune safer while making more power, and still have the overhead for protection against massive boost spikes or varying ethanol percentages. None of this is possible on petrol, even race fuel won't protect to this extent.

When tuned on United e85 I can easily run down to e70 or less, and still get away with running leaner if it gets to e90. Slight changes in ethanol content won't be a problem, mainly as I have a good tuner which is key. Obviously if you push the boundaries e85 will still toast an engine with fuel or timing issues.

[Borci88]

Ah good, there is so much misinformation getting about, I would hate for anyone to get the wrong idea about e85. There are a lot less drawbacks with it as a fuel source when compared to petrol, it just takes some understanding, usually on the part of the workshop doing your work, to set your car up for long term ethanol use.

I can see it's not for everyone, but long distance driving is the worst of it with reduced range and lack of pumps. These are easily overcome of course, and will be less of an issue as e85 works it's way into the market.

Why don't you do a write up Scotty? I'm sure lots on here would appreciate your knowledge on the subject, myself included!

[Birds]

Don't tell too many kents, they will put the price up.

Too late

I enjoyed a couple weeks of it being <$1.20 when I switched to it, haven't seen it return since...

[Birds]

lol. not many benefits were mentioned that aren't commonly known, but it was good to know whats involved for piece of mind.

to summarise, you could say the evening focused on:

- things to do or at least keep in mind when converting

- things to keep in mind when running (and buying E85)

- things to do to maintain your car when running E85

If that was the focus of the evening, I could give you the info in a single post:

- fit a big flowing fuel system

- how much better this car runs and smells

- the same shit you'd do if you weren't running ethanol

[scotty nm35]

I'm not great at essays, and I am the first to admit I don't know it all with regards to ethanol fuel, but most of the myths I have managed to debunk during my testing. I would love to do a write-up but I think I would prefer to just help people with information as they need their questions answered. The information is out there for those happy to research it a little, but you need to wade through all the bullshit.

I have always used independent tuners, and have no affiliation with particular brands (I have used them all) I can tell you there is little difference between e85 pump fuels and racing blends, and varying ethanol percentages is just a scare tactic pushed by companies trying to save a small piece of their old market.

Considering a wideband is under $200, just check your AFR's occasionally if you are worried. You should be doing the same thing on petrol anyway.

[Birds]

and the amount of tanks of E85 to run to clean out the 98 and get back to a higher ethanol content.

This is the worst myth of all

What was it based on, someone half draining a tank and filling up, repeat repeat repeat?

Get a fuel tank down to 5 litres and it's impossible for the tank to have more than 8% unleaded in it. So your first tank full of E85 becomes (let's say a conservative) E75. Which gets pumped through your engine at an E85 rate (higher). Oh noes, my engine is running rich, it might detonate...er

Fk flex tune and sensors and cleaning out tanks...I have an ethanol tune and a 98 tune. If I wanna switch from one to the other, I leave about 5 litres (have even done 10 litres before) in the tank and make the switch. I've then driven hard on that tank and nothing has happened. No pinging, no catastrophic engine failure. I've done this many times, it's safe.

Unless your tuner is a twit and gives you a knife edge tune, you don't have to think about this stuff. Set and forget. The only rule I adhere to is getting my ethanol from the same chain (United), which most people do when they play fanboi with 98 anyway.

[Birds]

yeah.

thats why i use 98 from one chain of petrol stations.

im glad E85 is regulated (from Nov 2012) but when United are only supposed to tell you the ethanol content, i was surprised that United wont tell you the RON rating. and when the ethanol content is down to 70% during winter months, I wonder what the RON would be then? for safety you would want a flex fuel meter guiding the ECU to make sure the mixtures are consistent with the fuel (at least i would anyway)

im not bagging the fuel, just playing devils advocate because its not for everyones budget or application.

What does the differential in RON rating matter for you? Your engine will run richer with E70. Unless you're on a knife edge tune, you have nothing to worry about. My car was summer tuned on E85, have been running it from United this winter...only reason I switched back to 98 for the moment is the cold morning starts. Was thrashing my car about on their winter mix with no problems (assuming it is even E70; I thought Caltex were the ones who did that).

[scotty nm35]

What does the differential in RON rating matter for you? Your engine will run richer with E70. Unless you're on a knife edge tune, you have nothing to worry about. My car was summer tuned on E85, have been running it from United this winter...only reason I switched back to 98 for the moment is the cold morning starts. Was thrashing my car about on their winter mix with no problems (assuming it is even E70; I thought Caltex were the ones who did that).

I sometimes ran Caltex in winter to help with starting on those chilly Melbourne mornings, but once you get the perfect cold start enrichment there is no reason to. I never had an issue running Caltex, as I tuned for the leaner mixtures of United.

I am trying to get information on heated tip injectors at the moment, apparently Delphi have released some on the Brazilian market. If we could get a set fitted aftermarket then all our cold start enrichment issues and subsequent usage will be gone.

[Birds]

I'm not great at essays, and I am the first to admit I don't know it all with regards to ethanol fuel, but most of the myths I have managed to debunk during my testing. I would love to do a write-up but I think I would prefer to just help people with information as they need their questions answered. The information is out there for those happy to research it a little, but you need to wade through all the bullshit.

I have always used independent tuners, and have no affiliation with particular brands (I have used them all) I can tell you there is little difference between e85 pump fuels and racing blends, and varying ethanol percentages is just a scare tactic pushed by companies trying to save a small piece of their old market.

Considering a wideband is under $200, just check your AFR's occasionally if you are worried. You should be doing the same thing on petrol anyway.

I think the best test of all is the practical one, where plenty of us have been using it for years with no blown engines or explosions or long distance stranded on the side of the road events...

No one has converted to ethanol and said I wish I hadn't done that!

[Birds]

I sometimes ran Caltex in winter to help with starting on those chilly Melbourne mornings, but once you get the perfect cold start enrichment there is no reason to. I never had an issue running Caltex, as I tuned for the leaner mixtures of United.

I am trying to get information on heated tip injectors at the moment, apparently Delphi have released some on the Brazilian market. If we could get a set fitted aftermarket then all our cold start enrichment issues and subsequent usage will be gone.

Heated tip injectors

[billywhiz]

I thought it was very useful, you need to hear all the points, would have been easier for you to be there than explain 1.5hrs of talk/demo in 3 lines. Cold starts, fuel temperatures etc all touched on.

My only issue, ice cold drinks served on an ice cold night - where was the hot cocoa :-)

[Birds]

Yeah but, not that I'm against people increasing their understanding of the topic, you don't really need to know any of that to make a choice about converting to E85 or not. It's just making a mountain out of a molehill and leaves more room for myths or confusion. Take for example gtrpsi who now thinks it's concerning how much 98 is left in a tank when replacing with ethanol.

Unless you're tuning your own car, leave it in the hands of a capable tuner to understand the technical aspects and enjoy the power. I'll tell you if my ethanol engine blows and then you can disregard what I say

[GTRPSI]

This is the worst myth of all

What was it based on, someone half draining a tank and filling up, repeat repeat repeat?

Get a fuel tank down to 5 litres and it's impossible for the tank to have more than 8% unleaded in it. So your first tank full of E85 becomes (let's say a conservative) E75. Which gets pumped through your engine at an E85 rate (higher). Oh noes, my engine is running rich, it might detonate...er

That was something shown in the demo there that night.

Were you there Birds?

Setup was a fuel pump running in a large clear glass jar, pumping through a ethanol tester hooked up to a display, feeding back into the jar.

About 2-3 liters of ethanol in the jar (guessing), reading E85, poured in about 200-300 ml of petrol only (guessing again) and it dropped to E40 or below.

Or maybe a better perspective is about 10" of E85 in the jar and adding less than 1" of 98 to it to get it down to under E40.

Not hard to reproduce on a test bench.

I also wouldnt have believed it without seeing it, it goes against all logic or what i originally thought which was much the same as you.

It seemed to be known by a few people there already running it, i never would have though that it was possible until i saw it with my own eyes.

It was very eye opening and educational, i never knew the Ethanol sensor read whats NOT Ethanol, you could piss in your tank to turn up the Ethanol sensor readings.

Again, add water to the jar and watch the E85 reading start climbing.....

The only concern i had after that night with E85 was the hydroscopic nature of the fuel and the ability of the E85 sensor to read higher than usualy Ethanol content because of water, you would hate to have your flex tune read a high ethanol content because of water in the tank.

Eye opening, has not put me off the fuel, only educated me a little more and made me rethink storing the car and what to do about the fuel sitting there as its not a daily.

Edited July 24, 2014 by GTRPSI

[Leroy Peterson]

i'd like to see what other flex fuel meters offer... not bagging the product being used, but when he said they all function the same, i would be very cautious of trusting anything any of them would display. especially if you're on a flex tune.

there would be a massive market for a programmable display that could give more accurate and reliable readings of petrol/ethanol %.

[Birds]

That was something shown in the demo there that night.

Were you there Birds?

Setup was a fuel pump running in a large clear glass jar, pumping through a ethanol tester hooked up to a display, feeding back into the jar.

About 2-3 liters of ethanol in the jar (guessing), reading E85, poured in about 200-300 ml of petrol only (guessing again) and it dropped to E40 or below.

Or maybe a better perspective is about 10" of E85 in the jar and adding less than 1" of 98 to it to get it down to under E40.

Not hard to reproduce on a test bench.

I also wouldnt have believed it without seeing it, it goes against all logic or what i originally thought which was much the same as you.

It seemed to be known by a few people there already running it, i never would have though that it was possible until i saw it with my own eyes.

It was very eye opening and educational, i never knew the Ethanol sensor read whats NOT Ethanol, you could piss in your tank to turn up the Ethanol sensor readings.

Again, add water to the jar and watch the E85 reading start climbing.....

The only concern i had after that night with E85 was the hydroscopic nature of the fuel and the ability of the E85 sensor to read higher than usualy Ethanol content because of water, you would hate to have your flex tune read a high ethanol content because of water in the tank.

Eye opening, has not put me off the fuel, only educated me a little more and made me rethink storing the car and what to do about the fuel sitting there as its not a daily.

All this shows to me is a shitty ethanol sensor? But we knew they weren't reliable already. Still, people have been running flex tunes without issue, so I don't see the point to the test. Real life example > bench test.

Or like I said, don't bother with flex, you don't need it. Ethanol tune, 98 tune and a $50 laptop will take care of business.

Artz stored his car for 3 months with a tank of E85 in it, started first crank and ran fine. But if you're really worried you can swap to 98 and leave it stored with that or if race car drain the tank by disconnecting fuel return and turn on fuel pump / ignition (I was considering making up a t piece and tap for this, but I don't swap to 98 and back urgently enough).

[gtr jet]

When I converted to E85 almost 3 years ago now all I did was wack a bigger fuel pump and injectors in, fill the tank, tune it up (in summer) and away I went.

Only issue I have is cold starts as it was tuned on a 30 degree day. It took about 5 go's to start this morning.

I've been racing it with the occasional street cruise so the car can sit for up to a month at a time without an issue.

I know this is stupid but I still haven't changed the fuel filter since converting yet it hasn't given me any trouble. I've got a new one sitting there but I can't get the old one out...