Methanol / Water injection?

[HarrisRacing]

Did a search and came up EMPTY in this category which surprised me actually.

I have the Hypertune V2 manifold which has 12 bosses for fuel injectors and I'm thinking of using the other 6 (currently not drilled through) injector ports for water injection nozzles. I have seen where water/methanol injection consistently beats 116 octane fuel when used on top of 93 octane and I'm thinking this may be perfect for my streetcar. Does anyone here have any experience with this setup?

I am at the limit of 93 octane at about 20 psi boost on my 850cc injectors currently and have a pretty good fuel pump for it (AEM 380 LPH pump) so I'd like to keep from changing over to an E85 system for now (which would require another fuel pump, bigger injectors (1300cc), lowered fuel mileage, etc). The Haltech has extra PWM ouptus and I have a couple of digital relays here, so I'm thinking of installing a water/methanol system which will be controlled VIA Haltech.

I'm not sure what it does to the wideband reading, and I'd like to see if anyone has a "go-by" of sorts for setup (nozzle sizes, AFR targets, etc).

EDIT- I think I have calculated for 25 psi boost and 50/50 mix of water/methanol I would need about 800-1,000 mL/min of total injection rate. I'd likely start with 30% duty cycle and ramp this up with my power levels from 15 psi up (probably some ratio of fuel injector rate) up to 25 psi. So I'm planning on using (6x) 1.9 GPH nozzles and building a kit. I'll likely get the snow box to ensure flow during running as well (assuming this can be read by the Haltech).

[tridentt150v]

I have the SPIII kit on my Gts25t but its a single point injection..........so I'm not even close to what you are doing.  And there is plenty on here about WMI, but in all the discussions Mafia or I and others have started, I can't remember anyone on SAU talking about 6 injection points or the setup you are looking at.

[sneakey pete]

Search wmi or meth perhaps.

Pretty sure the thread n it was discussed as recently as last month so maybe just scroll down a few pages of topics even.

Would there be any issues doing it multi port, or benefits over single port?

[GTSBoy]

This topic has actually had fairly extensive coverage on these very forums and there are a few threads that are actually quite recent.

 

You will NOT want to inject at the runners.  You want the water to go in as early as you can to give it some time to evaporate.  So into plenum or intercooler pipe is generally considered to be better.

 

Do as instructed above.  Search some more.  Don't use the forum's own search function - they are usually as weak as piss.  Use google and point google to just sau.com.au.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

You still need more fuel.. so if you're at your so called limits then you'll need to upgrade your fuel system.

As you inject water/meth your mixtures will lean out, thus requiring you to ram in more fuel. Basic rule, tune for under 11:1 AFR for Gasoline, and inject water/meth to you bring your mixtures back to high 11s. Then start advancing timing... in your case you don't need to advance timing as you're already running so much for Gasoline I'm suspecting you're nosing over MBT for that rpm vs. load.

[HarrisRacing]

Benefits of multiport are the same as same for nitrous. Ensuring the same amount of protection goes to all cylinders. I would also add a 7th larger nozzle post-intercooler to reduce overall temp as well

[HarrisRacing]

12 hours ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

You still need more fuel.. so if you're at your so called limits then you'll need to upgrade your fuel system.

As you inject water/meth your mixtures will lean out, thus requiring you to ram in more fuel. Basic rule, tune for under 11:1 AFR for Gasoline, and inject water/meth to you bring your mixtures back to high 11s. Then start advancing timing... in your case you don't need to advance timing as you're already running so much for Gasoline I'm suspecting you're nosing over MBT for that rpm vs. load.

Actually I'm reading the opposite of this from the manufacturers.

I'm running 6x 850cc Bosch EV14 injectors. They run very well. Seeing about 85% duty at 8k rpms and 18 psi boost. Also I'm at 19.9 deg of timing and no knock up there. I'm at about 24 deg timing at 7k rpms and it slowly dives down from there to the almost 20 deg.

1) a single injector in the post-intercooler stream will reduce intake temperatures which can help REDUCE power LOSS from heatsoak, but only makes more power IF: the AFR is adjusted on engine, the boost is raised, or the timing is bumped. If none of these are changed the engine will be likely more reliable, yet make less power.

2) They are saying that meth/water injection makes the mixture richer and reduces power initially if no other changes are made. Makes sense because methanol is a fuel after all and water is reducing the combustion temps in the cylinder which effectively should be robbing some amount of heat energy that normally turns into POWER. That being said, I think the additional ACTUAL octane of the methanol is marginal and is not what is making then engine safer to run higher boost and more advanced ignition timing...

Using the SNOW performance table here where I'm at currently (18 psi boost about 600 HP) they suggest a 624 cc/min (or mL/min same units) of injection rate. This means that really I could use an extra fuel injector (IF they atomized as well as water injection nozzles - which they don't) to inject the water/meth. Given a 50/50 mix the additional fuel is still around 310cc/min of extra raw methanol. Granted, methanol is supposed to run SIGNIFICANTLY RICHER than Gasoline so this amount of actual added octane due to the additional methanol is negligible IMO.

The benefit of a single fogger nozzle is that it cools the intake charge and having this upstream of my IAT sensor (which is smack in the middle of my manifold) would allow me to compensate for the decreased IATs.

The benefit of the multiple nozzles would be the ensure that I am getting the same amount of actual fluid injected to each cylinder as opposed to relying on the single fogger to distribute to all cylinders equally. I would say that this is the real purpose of the methanol as it would evaporate significantly quicker into the airstream and keep the vapor more evenly distributed in the air stream through the runners.

My goals would be to:

1) Leave the low end power level where it is at about 16 psi or so. Perhaps only inject on top end or at boost onset to keep the max torque from causing detonation. Stretch my boost out to 20 psi and see what it can do with WMI and more timing. Since the injectors could be leaned out (and I'm currently at 85% at 8k rpms at 18 psi) I think the meth/water will allow me to stretch these 850cc's out a bit more and the timing advance is simply easy free'd up horsepower at this point. This will max out my 850cc injectors I'm sure. Then once I get comfortable with this...

2) Change fuel injectors to 1,000cc see if I could support 24-25 psi reliably on the water injection and 93 pumpgas. I doubt I would want more than this amount of horsepower at that point because I would be worried the trans would totally grenade.

 

 

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

this is where I face palm myself

water/meth will richen up mixtures, as you're injecting a combustible.. I have no idea why I said it would lean out mixtures.. probably all the ethanol use has fogged my mind haha

[sneakey pete]

You mention equal flow distribution, but is that not the whole point of the fancy hypertune plenum in the first place?

[tridentt150v]

With the SPIII kit you can set the unit to idc and psi.  Plus you can start at say 14psi and have it all in by 18psi, and at the same time 60% idc and all in by 75% say.

I wouldn't leave it just for the top end, I would start my ramp up earlier and have the benefits already happening but ramping to max as you and where you need it most.  So I wouldn't just be thinking top end.

Its been a while [cos it just works], but I think mine is set to 8 and 14 psi and 40 and 75 idc.

 

[HarrisRacing]

2 hours ago, tridentt150v said:

With the SPIII kit you can set the unit to idc and psi.  Plus you can start at say 14psi and have it all in by 18psi, and at the same time 60% idc and all in by 75% say.

I wouldn't leave it just for the top end, I would start my ramp up earlier and have the benefits already happening but ramping to max as you and where you need it most.  So I wouldn't just be thinking top end.

Its been a while [cos it just works], but I think mine is set to 8 and 14 psi and 40 and 75 idc.

  I can build the whole table in the Haltech as well and just have it run the injector solenoid on PWM. I'd like to see how to wire in their little fail-safe flowmeter though as I'm out of 5v inputs. I may just run one of their kits with a couple of nozzles to get to 20 psi and try the individuals later when I want to run more with more fuel.