Tuning Ethics

[ECR033]

Bit of a story to this, please bare with it...

I had my PFC (R33 GTST) tuned earlier this year, getting around 186rwkw on 12psi with FMIC, Cat back exhaust and air filter, outlaying over $550 for the tune.

First problem - I didn't really notice an immense improvement in performance over the std ECU after the first tune, although I didn't think too much of it...thinking to myself that the dyno results don't lie. In the mean time, I fitted a hiflow cat and 3" dump pipe and I then took the car for a run at WSID. The knock reading went through the roof on my third run, so I parked the car for the night and decide to head back to the tuner to find out what's going on. Tuner says that all the maps have "dissapeared", probably when the hand controller was plugged in after the initial tune and that the software needs to be reloaded and the PFC retuned. I thought that was a little odd, firstly because I hadn't heard of that happening before and secondly because I was under the impression that they would have saved the original tune somewhere on their own computer. I was happy enough for them to retune the car, but I became a little irritated when the car only produced 175rwkw on 11psi when I was hoping for at least the same output as the inital tune (admittedly 1psi less boost, but I though the addition of the hiflow cat and 3" dump pipe would have roughly compensated for the reduced boost) and to make matters worse, they charged me $150 and half a day of my time for the trouble which I wasn't happy about. I still question why it's making less power now and why I had to pay $150 for a retune when I left the workshop the first time $550 poorer without the car being tuned properly. I believe I am entitled to feel irritated, but I didn't take it any further as I was happy with how the car felt and just couldn't justify wasting any more time with this...

Second problem - the car developed a rough idle directly after the car was tuned the second time. I wanted to get this looked at (as well as getting my clutch replaced as it had seen better days), but I didn't want to go back to the original tuner primarily because they were a good hour's drive from my house and secondly for the reasons mentioned above. I decided to go to a local reputable workshop and organised for the work to be done, only for the tuner to call me within an hour of dropping my car off to tell me that all the tuning maps have been "locked" by the original tuner and that he couldn't even view the maps. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but i didn't think that tuners were allowed to lock the maps so only they could access them (in doing so, supposedly forcing me to go to them for all my tuning). I would have thought the fact that it is my car and that I paid for the tune, that it becomes my property and that I always maintain the right to choose who tunes the car.

Has anyone else experienced this problem before???

If so, what course of action did you take to get your tune unlocked???

I will be going back to the original tuner to ask them to unlock the maps, but I'm unsure as to what reaction I'm going to get from them. I'm pretty irritated by the whole situation as not only has it cost me more than it should of, but it's also inconveniced me by unneccesarily taking up a lot of my time (I've taken numerous days off work to get the car to both workshops).

Does anyone have any suggestions on anything else I can do to rectify this situation?

Apologies for the long rant - I just wanted to vent, make people aware that this kind of thing happens and get suggestions on what course of action to take from here.

Any help/comments on this would be very much appreciated - thanks

[Laurence]

Just made it a bit easier to read...

A bit of a tough one really. The settings are their "product" so I can understand them not wanting you to copy it. But by the sounds of it nobody would want to copy your tune anyway.

Bit of a story to this, please bare with it...

I had my PFC (R33 GTST) tuned earlier this year, getting around 186rwkw on 12psi with FMIC, Cat back exhaust and air filter, outlaying over $550 for the tune.

First problem - I didn't really notice an immense improvement in performance over the std ECU after the first tune, although I didn't think too much of it...thinking to myself that the dyno results don't lie.  

In the mean time, I fitted a hiflow cat and 3" dump pipe and I then took the car for a run at WSID. The knock reading went through the roof on my third run, so I parked the car for the night and decide to head back to the tuner to find out what's going on.  

Tuner says that all the maps have "dissapeared", probably when the hand controller was plugged in after the initial tune and that the software needs to be reloaded and the PFC retuned. I thought that was a little odd, firstly because I hadn't heard of that happening before and secondly because I was under the impression that they would have saved the original tune somewhere on their own computer.  

I was happy enough for them to retune the car, but I became a little irritated when the car only produced 175rwkw on 11psi when I was hoping for at least the same output as the inital tune (admittedly 1psi less boost, but I though the addition of the hiflow cat and 3" dump pipe would have roughly compensated for the reduced boost) and to make matters worse, they charged me $150 and half a day of my time for the trouble which I wasn't happy about.  

I still question why it's making less power now and why I had to pay $150 for a retune when I left the workshop the first time $550 poorer without the car being tuned properly. I believe I am entitled to feel irritated, but I didn't take it any further as I was happy with how the car felt and just couldn't justify wasting any more time with this...

Second problem - the car developed a rough idle directly after the car was tuned the second time. I wanted to get this looked at (as well as getting my clutch replaced as it had seen better days), but I didn't want to go back to the original tuner primarily because they were a good hour's drive from my house and secondly for the reasons mentioned above. I decided to go to a local reputable workshop and organised for the work to be done, only for the tuner to call me within an hour of dropping my car off to tell me that all the tuning maps have been "locked" by the original tuner and that he couldn't even view the maps.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but i didn't think that tuners were allowed to lock the maps so only they could access them (in doing so, supposedly forcing me to go to them for all my tuning). I would have thought the fact that it is my car and that I paid for the tune, that it becomes my property and that I always maintain the right to choose who tunes the car.

Has anyone else experienced this problem before???

If so, what course of action did you take to get your tune unlocked???

I will be going back to the original tuner to ask them to unlock the maps, but I'm unsure as to what reaction I'm going to get from them. I'm pretty irritated by the whole situation as not only has it cost me more than it should of, but it's also inconveniced me by unneccesarily taking up a lot of my time (I've taken numerous days off work to get the car to both workshops).

Does anyone have any suggestions on anything else I can do to rectify this situation?

Apologies for the long rant - I just wanted to vent, make people aware that this kind of thing happens and get suggestions on what course of action to take from here.

Any help/comments on this would be very much appreciated - thanks

[LBR33]

by the souns of it the tuner is taking you for a ride. Try CRD in sydney.

[GTRgeoff]

They should not lock the maps or the PFC. It is your property and they are removing your right to change the settings (which is for track use right ). Imagine I was paid to put in a pool and filter/pump assy and let you use the pool but locked all the hardware so you had to get me back to service etc, and didn't tell you, on the grounds someone might see my secret pump/filter system. You would cut the lock and use someone else for the sake of teaching me a lesson. You have paid for their time and what they have provided is not classed as Intellectual Property (IP) and they (it would appear) did not advise you they would be locking the PFC or ask for a signature on a non-disclosure agreement. If they can patent it or show original content they can claim IP so Nuh Uhh, they lose. They should have had the initial tune saved, but you did get a retune for the new combo at a good price.

Demand they provide the password to allow you access to your equipment and/or tell them you will be shouting to the world that they lock the PFC and no-one will touch them from SAU. That is not slander but simply advising of distasteful practices.

On a side note, with a similar setup I pulled 220rwkw but the extra bit was a malpassi fuel reg. I've checked the turbo and it is stock so full exhaust, GTR pump, 800hp FMIC and it produces. That means as tuners they SUCK!

[infected flow]

CRD in sydney are you serious!!!!....

id rather put my balls on a hot grille!

[KIL.08S]

CRD in sydney are you serious!!!!....

id rather put my balls on a hot grille!

why is this? i am just curious.

[Messiah]

He just likes puttings his balls on a hot grille.

Nah CRD are meant to be pretty "premium" as far as tuners go, but some argue the price they pay for it is a little rich.

All in all its horses for coarses. I got mine tuned a UAS got 190rwkw at about 11psi with only a PFC Eboost 3inch turbo back zorst inc dump and a pod, all else is stock. I'm happy with the tune so what i payed (about 500 for the tune plus a little for some needed replacement bits and labour) seems reasonable to me.

That said CRD have alot of credability as far as ability goes, so where as a tune may be a tune and therefore not worth the extra cash, their reputation might be. I beleive most ppl who went to CRD would say "it cost me a bomb, but it was tuned by the best so i'm happy", ok maybe a minority might say "i had to sell my wife and kids into slavery to afford it, but hey its tuned by the best and the house is so peaceful with the wife and kids gone, i'm happy".

[ECR033]

They should not lock the maps or the PFC. It is your property and they are removing your right to change the settings (which is for track use right ). Imagine I was paid to put in a pool and filter/pump assy and let you use the pool but locked all the hardware so you had to get me back to service etc, and didn't tell you, on the grounds someone might see my secret pump/filter system. You would cut the lock and use someone else for the sake of teaching me a lesson. You have paid for their time and what they have provided is not classed as Intellectual Property (IP) and they (it would appear) did not advise you they would be locking the PFC or ask for a signature on a non-disclosure agreement. If they can patent it or show original content they can claim IP so Nuh Uhh, they lose. They should have had the initial tune saved, but you did get a retune for the new combo at a good price.

Demand they provide the password to allow you access to your equipment and/or tell them you will be shouting to the world that they lock the PFC and no-one will touch them from SAU. That is not slander but simply advising of distasteful practices.

On a side note, with a similar setup I pulled 220rwkw but the extra bit was a malpassi fuel reg. I've checked the turbo and it is stock so full exhaust, GTR pump, 800hp FMIC and it produces. That means as tuners they SUCK!

I pretty much agree with what you're saying and I'll be echoing that to the original workshop (which shall remain nameless) when I go past there in the next week or so.

It's a bit of a shame because they seemed like decent guys - it's just extremely frustrating from my perspective as I really believe they should have at least had the courtesy to advise me that they lock the tune when I spoke to them prior to getting the work done. At least that way I would have able to make a fully informed decision on whether or not to go with them or someone else (based on what I know now). Worse still, they didn't even bother to tell me after doing the work and then I find out the hard way when I've got my car in another workshop attempting to get something done thus inconveniencing me and wasting the new workshop's time in the process when I can't get my idle problem looked at.

I just don't think that's an ethical way to do business - the money's in their bank account now, so I don't really have a leg to stand on other than to hope they'll just do the right thing by me when I go back. I just hope other people don't fall into the same trap

[GTRgeoff]

Hit them with a claim for non-economic loss for the lost time, and time is money, and watch them squirm.

It should be the first question "are you thinking of locking it?"

CRD... is that Croydon? Just contemplating some of their product on a race car at the moment.

[KIL.08S]

i only get my car tuned at croydon and yes, they charge to much, take to long but they are the best. thats the reason they can charge to much and take to long. but each to there own i guess.

[DanGTS]

aside from the lock which alone would get me irritated they let you drive away with an unmapped ecu. I am no expert so please correct me if i am way off the mark here but wouldnt that do potential damage to your engine..?

[infected flow]

yes i like to put my balls on a hot ...hahah

would u like to join...

im not going to start but i will say personal experience!

and it had nothing to do with cost!

[Sydneykid]

There are two points of view here, yours and the workshops......

The workshop must have lapt top tuning software (Datalogit or Excel) because you can't lock maps with the Commander. Simply plugging in the Commander will not reset the maps, that has to done via the Initialise command. Since it is lap top programmed I would expect that they would have kept a copy of your maps. I would, as it makes tuning the next similar car to yours much easier. I have a copy of all of my maps.

But there is another point of view here.....

They only saw you once for the tune, then someone deleted their good work on the maps and they had to replace them. You had an idle problem but they don't even know about it. They didn't have a chance to fix it, maybe they would have done it for nothing. You went somewhere else because it was an hour's drive, but you chose that workshop in the first place, so it's not their fault.

I tell this to sooooo many people, workshops are full of humans, they are going to treat someone they know much better than a "one time charlie" that they never see again. They know the car and the drivers preferences so you get a better, faster result. They will keep the dyno charts and the maps for comparison, this menas a better result every time you go. Heavens they may even loan you a car if they knew you better.

Maybe not in your case.....

The absolute worse thing you can do to a workshoip is take a car in with heaps of mods, that's never had a tune and has a handfull of problems. That's not a TUNE, it turns into a full service and sometimes a basic rebuild of the work that been done.

Think about how you would feel if someone booked a car in for "just a tune" and when it arrived it had screwed plugs, stuffed coils, dirty air and fuel filters, dodgy wiring and heap of smaller problems that only show up when you fix the main ones. And he wants it back in an hour with 1,000 bhp all for a cost of $100.

There are 2 sides to every story:cheers:

[infected flow]

i agree to this!

[2rismo]

The absolute worse thing you can do to a workshoip is take a car in with heaps of mods, that's never had a tune and has a handfull of problems. That's not a TUNE, it turns into a full service and sometimes a basic rebuild of the work that been done.

Ahem, errr this is how some perfectly legitimate workshops make their money. As well as some perfectly unscrupulous ones.

I think that the first question I'd ask any new tuner is, "Do you intend to lock the tune?". However, if I didn't know that this was even possible it creates a problem. I think the onus is on the tuner to say that that's what they intend to do.

Adrian

[someonestolecc]

Fair enough S-Kid I pay your points in full.

I still disagree with them locking the stuff.. You pay, you've commissioned them to work for you... The result is yours.

As for the one-time-charlie thing - it doesn't mean you need to be stooged just because you're there only one time.. but fair enough you inherently might not receive as good-er service as a regular.

[Mr R32 M-Spec]

go back and punch the guy in the head, or yell, or maybe just politley talk to him about how he is screwing you around.

My mate had a 33GTST, with fuel pump,exhaust(full), pod and a bleed valve it came up on 1 dyno he went to as 189KW RW and another as slightly higher, on 15PSI. some cars are just freakish, maybe yours has a little problem or maybe the guy is just dodgy.

Have you known any other cars that came from this place? and maybe ask the other customers what they thought.

I just had my EBC on my GTR tuned at CRD the other day. I ALMOST PASSED OUT AT THE COUNTER! no doubt the prices are up there but jim knows what he's doing. it only took less then 10 mins on the dyno to setup.

mark

[ECR033]

Just to clarify a few points as I don’t want people to get the wrong idea and misinterpret my original posts…

* Yes, the workshop does have the laptop tuning software and I expect that they did keep a copy of my maps. The reason I believe they did a retune instead of just replicating the original maps is due to the fact that they told me they were going to back the boost down to 11psi (from 12psi) as the knock reading went through the roof when I ran the car at WSID after the original tune. Of course, in hindsight this only happened because the original dyno tune they did with their laptop was not the tune that I left the workshop with. It “just disappeared” quote/unquote. If they had told me this before they did the retune, then I would have just asked for the original tune to be replicated and there would be no need to retune from scratch, no need to recharge me and no need to waste half a day of my time.

* No-one deleted the original tune. The tuner told me that it would have been lost when they disconnected their laptop and re-connected my hand controller. Apparently they’ve seen a couple of instances of this happening in the past (including on their own car). Why they didn’t bother to road test the car after this tune is beyond me. I asked the tuner about this afterwards and he admitted that they should have road tested the car and that it was an oversight on his behalf. As a result, I left their workshop with an untuned PFC, $550 poorer and potentially risking damage to my engine. As said in my original post, I didn’t really notice an improvement in performance after the tune, but due to my naivety with this kind of thing I didn’t question it…basically thinking that the dyno readout doesn’t lie and that perhaps I was over optimistic about the improvement I was going to achieve.

* The original workshop did know about the idle problem, in fact the tuner was the one who noticed it initially when he took the car for a test drive after the retune. It was only intermittent at that time and apparently after re-plugging a supposedly loose hose into the distributor, the problem disappeared. I can attest to this as it was idling fine when I drove the car home, but the problem re-emerged the next day and has been occurring ever since.

* I agree that sticking to the same workshop does have its benefits and I did intend on getting back to them to have another look at the idle problem when I had time. Given it’s not just a 10 min drive down the road and that I don’t have a lot of spare time due to work commitments, I hadn’t had a chance to do so as yet. In the mean time, after doing some research on these forums and speaking to the guy personally, I dropped my car off at a reputable local workshop to have my clutch replaced. During the ensuing conversation I also mentioned my idle problem to him and being a reputable tuner in his own right, he offered to have a look at the problem for me in the hope that he could possibly pinpoint and rectify the issue. I didn’t originally go there with the intention of him trying to rectify the idle problem, but I thought it would be a good opportunity to kill 2 birds with the same stone so to speak.

* My car is only very mildly modified (i.e PFC, EBC, FMIC, turbo back exhaust, air filter) and did not have any major problems prior to the original tune (other than my clutch which was starting to occasionally slip very slightly). The car been regularly serviced in the past, so there shouldn’t (and wasn’t) any need to do service work. Please don’t get me wrong, if there was a need to do any work, then I would have no hesitation in getting it rectified. My only gripe is that I don’t like paying money for nothing…I’m sure most people are the same way inclined.

My major gripes are (time inconveniences aside):

a) The tuning maps were locked. I wasn’t informed that this was going to happen and quite frankly I don’t believe they had the right to do that once I paid for the tune. Additionally, we’re not talking about some +300rwkw weapon here – my car didn’t even make 200rwkw, so I don’t think they were really risking divulging any tuning secrets with my tune.

B) I was charged for an original tune which I really didn’t receive. Admittedly, the work was done on the car, but for whatever reason, I didn’t leave the workshop with the tune I paid for. This could and should have been avoided if the car had been road tested prior to me collecting it.

c) I had to pay for an unnecessary retune. They could have reloaded the original maps, but chose to retune on lower boost (which wasn’t necessary as the high knock reading was inevitably due to driving the car with an untuned PFC rather than running it on 12psi).

I think I’m entitled to feel a little irritated about the above. Obviously I won't recover the money or time wasted in this whole debacle (nor do I think there's anything to gain from trying to do so), but I am hopeful that at least I'll be able to resolve the locked tuning map issue when I visit the workshop in the next week or so…they seemed like decent guys and all I really want is to have my tune unlocked, so if that happens, I’ll happily walk away and call it a day. At the end of the day, all I wanted was to physically receive what I paid for and I don’t think that I’ve been paid that courtesy.

[nemz]

id burn theres faces with a hot iron

[RB30-POWER]

They probally want it locked so you don't see their poor tuning maps.

Hell it may not even be tuned at all?

Have you tested at WSID again