Autronic Ecus

[manage13]

I wouldnt go preaching about someones car unless unless you helped build it, or are the owner.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was used as an example buddy!....I'm running the same set up, I didn't want to comment on my set up as it is yet to see the road.

No full wire-in ECU comes without niggles and other things that can take time to nut down fully.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you go through an authorized dealer of Autronic or Motec you DO NOT HAVE these, as you put it "niggles". Autronic dealers such as Beninca Motors have to comply to stringent guidelines set by Autronic.

Hence the PFC is a good option for simple and medium level applications.

High end applications is where arguments like this come about without people being fully informed.

Go with what works, and what you need to achieve that goal

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since when was this post about Power FC? Ookami was asking about people experience with the Autronic system NOT the PFC. R31Nismoid, instead of having a go at me why don’t you tell all the people that posted about PFC on this thread to stay on topic.

NOTE: I am not bagging the PFC by any means; it is a very good ECU. I’m just getting sick of people paying out on Motec and Autronic systems on this forum.

Edited February 7, 2006 by manage13

[DoughBoy]

Have a look at similar examples locally, if you are maxing out a Q45 then you're certainly looking at alot of power - which would be pretty much a drag or dyno car.

The quick GTR camp seems to be full of Motec cars (Mario, Keir, Mark Jacobson) where the GTS-t camp is all over the place (Haltech seem to do the job too).

I think alot of people shy away from the Autronic because it is a very complicated and not user-friendly - unless you latch on to someone who knows it very well it's a nasty and painful way to go. Having said that the Autronic "guru's" seem to get them working extremely well. Richard Aubert is a hard-core geek with no people skills, and Ray Hall's just an ass.

[Sydneykid]

Crock....of......you-know-what.

How much would you like to bet on it?

I can produce video, photos and magazine articles to support it.

Hell, everyone knows the car, it's legendary.

How many cars running even 1 second SLOWER than that WORKSHOP car and faster than 165mph want NO DATA LOGGING?

Datalogit seems to do a pretty good job of logging, as does Power Excel. The Motec or PI dashes/data loggers we use in the race cars do a better total job than ECU logging on its own. There are quite few inexpensive loggers around these days that would be cheaper/better than paying for an Autronic (or Motec).

Professional race teams - not backyarders or street-car racers run 8's and they don't do it with Power FC's unless they MAKE power fc's or sell them.

So if HKS uses HKS ECU's that's not counted, are they somehow not a "Professional Race Team"?

Or Apexi uses Apexi ECU's, you don't count that either, are they truly not considered a "Professional Race Team"?

What about Mines using their own chipped standard ECU's, are they not to be considered a "Professional Race Team"?

Have I got this right, what you are saying is you are only a "Profession Race Team" if you use someone elses ECU?

Sorry mate but "..the Power FC is your best choice." is a horribly general statement and very irresponsible advice.

I took into account what ookami originally posted, he knows little about ECU's, lives in "hicksville" (his word not mine) and wants to be able to drive his car "a fair way to get it tuned". These are not words I would normally associate with an Autronic (or Motec) ECU.

I would also love to see the dyno graph for the RB31DET.

Adrian

When it's done and I am happy, I will post it up.

P.S.  I run a Power FC on my street car and think it is one of the best choices for that application.  I sure as shit wont be using one on any out-and-out race car that may or may not be in the future.

My impression was that ookami's intention was not an "out-and-out race car" hence the Power FC suggestion. If he had used words like "trailered, regular runs down the 1/4, drag use only, not on the road, deregistered, etc" then I might have given a different suggestion.

So I stick by my original posts.

cheers

PS; I am always ready willing and able to support anything that I post.

Edited February 7, 2006 by Sydneykid

[R31Nismoid]

Not having a got at you at all. You just cant go using an example and say its perfect, and its a great example etc etc if it wasnt for a while

Not saying the car isnt a gret example now, but a lot of effort has gone into the car, and fair enough too.

Just because the end result is a working car means little to me unless you get to know that actual problems faced, which often people are not willing to share as openly as you'd think.

Its a bit hard to call something "far superior" if its taken a lot of time, effort and money to setup correctly.

Something that takes far less time to setup would equally count for the "far superior" label would it not?

Depends as i said, on what you require.

This thread is about Autronic as the belief of the AFM maxing out.

There is a way around it so its as much related as anything else.

Each to thier own on this, and people have thier own optinions.

If ookami wants to use Autronic good on him.

But its useless letting him make a decision if there is something else out there that could also be viable (not just PFC here either)

[Sydneykid]

Geeez! What is up with all you people always bad mouthing the Motec and Autronic systems?

I'm not "bad mouthing the Motec and Autronic systems" if it came across that way I appologise. What I was doing was taking in what ookami posted and then making my best suggestion.

I have been involved/managed race teams using Autronic ECu's and CDI's on 5 X race cars, 2 X BMW Supertourers and 3 X Perkins customer V8 Supercars. I have the utmost respect for them in a race team anvironment, where there are technicians on hand who understand the Autronic system. I have used 10+ Motecs on race cars, we currently have 4 X ECU's, 3 X CDI's and 2 X dash board loggers on the Honda and the Nissan Supertourers. On the 2 X rotaries we use Microtechs because they suite that application very well. The interface with the PI dash and data logger is a bit tricky though. The Motec ECU to Motec Dash interface is very nice. Horses for courses as they say.

If I was building an all out Skyline race car I would probably choose a Motec ECU and dash (again) because of my greater experience with them. But if someone gave me an Autronic and a PI System instead, I wouldn't be dissappointed.

cheers

Edited February 7, 2006 by Sydneykid

[SteveL]

There are pluses and minuses in each direction - PFC is plug and play but is engine specific; Autronic will run virtually any engine (theoretically), but a bit more work involved. So it's not just a question what you have planned now, but also what you want to do going into the future. For example, if your keeping the car for some time then PFC is probably enough, but if you plan to move on to other cars/makes/models the Autronic has the flexibility to go with you.

[FATGTS-R]

If you go through an authorized dealer of Autronic or Motec you DO NOT HAVE these, as you put it "niggles". Autronic dealers such as Beninca Motors have to comply to stringent guidelines set by Autronic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have an Autronic, and yes it was fitted by an Autronic dealer. To say I didnt have niggles is a laughable comment in my isolated situation. This not representative of the ecu, just my personal experience.

People always say "choose the ecu your tuner is familiar with" I would add "make sure the person wiring is also equally if not more competent than the tuner".

From my experience I see the wiring in to be the most critical part. It needs to wired in better than a factory ecu. "interference" is a word I detest now.

When I was deciding on an ecu the PFC was my first choice but there isnt a model available for an old RB20 (since found out I could have retrofitted one) so I went the Autronic. The plug in versatility alone would have saved me many a heartache.

Am I happy with the Autronic? Yes, it is as everone knows an outstanding piece of gear if wired in right and tuner knows how to play with it but as my car is 90% street driven my opinion is that the power FC would have been a much better soloution for my needs.

[Turbine]

Do you guys realize how easy it is to actually tune an Autronic system? Adam (WetGTR) showed me himself how easy it was to tune. Do you people realize how well this system will work for even a street car?

I'm just interested manage13. How many hours on the dyno did it take to get this guys GTR (WETGTR) up and running to where it is now?? He does run an Autronic right?

Turbine

[TurboX]

but I believe i will max out the afm with the mods I'm looking at doing.

cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Getting right to the point of this post - THE AFM!

DO this - IT WORKS

More info :My Webpage

[Sydneykid]

Do you guys realize how easy it is to actually tune an Autronic system? Adam (WetGTR) showed me himself how easy it was to tune. Do you people realize how well this system will work for even a street car?

I'm just interested manage13. How many hours on the dyno did it take to get this guys GTR (WETGTR) up and running to where it is now?? He does run an Autronic right?

Turbine

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tuning for power is dead easy, it's not the problem. The issue is the complexity and knowledge/experience required to do the initial set up. Just setting up the crank and camshaft angle sensor inputs and parameters is not a task for an inexperienced Autronic user. As is configuring the the TPS, water temp sensor, air temp sensor, ignitor impedance and dwell, injector delay etc etc. All the stuff that takes hours and requires both intimate Autronic and Skyline knowledge. It is not unusual to spend a whole day on set up before the car goes anywhere near the dyno. That's after a couple of days of wiring. When you do start tuning, the maps are blank, there is NOTHING there. You have to have some knowledge to be able to load simplistic maps so at least the engine wil start.

With a power FC, all of that stuff is set up, loaded, tested, configured, debugged and ready for you to tune. It even has a basic tune that works, at least the engine will start after a 5 minute install.

cheers

Edited February 7, 2006 by Sydneykid

[Turbine]

I have an off topic question for Sydney Kid.

Have a look at the airflow meter and box setup on Turbox's post. What effect would that have on ignition timing with the 550cc injectors, through the standard ecu?

Remember I PMed you about a possible pinging issue with the engine. Could this mod tell the ecu that the actual metered airflow has dropped off considerably, but having the large injectors, the air/fuel ratios are able to be still correct with the ignition timing over advancing causing that pinging sound? Something like unpredictable airflow rates not relative to RPM/LOAD. Does that make any sense?

Turbine B)

[2rismo]

How much would you like to bet on it?

I can produce video, photos and magazine articles to support it.

Hell, everyone knows the car, it's legendary.

I know it exists, mate. I was suggesting that your post was an irresponsible crock.

Datalogit seems to do a  pretty good job of logging, as does Power Excel.  The Motec or PI dashes/data loggers we use in the race cars do a better total job than ECU logging on its own.  There are quite few inexpensive loggers around these days that would be cheaper/better than paying for an Autronic (or Motec).

Please show me the inexpensive ones that are as comprehensive and effective as, say, an SMC or SM4.

So if HKS uses HKS ECU's that's not counted, are they somehow not a "Professional Race Team"?

Or Apexi uses Apexi ECU's, you don't count that either, are they truly not considered a "Professional Race Team"?

What about Mines using their own chipped standard ECU's, are they not  to be considered a "Professional Race Team"?

Missed the whole point again....Jeez...

I took into account what ookami originally posted, he knows little about ECU's, lives in "hicksville" (his word not mine) and wants to be able to drive his car "a fair way to get it tuned".

Here's where it all falls down. Power FC may be the best option for ookami but your blanket statement that an Apexi Power FC is the best option unless your aims are more than 165mph or 1100hp is ridiculous.

When it's done and I am happy, I will post it up.

So it's not done? Or you're happy enough with your result to talk it up but not support what you post with facts?

My impression was that ookami's intention was not an "out-and-out race car" hence the Power FC suggestion.

And it was probably the right one. You've missed the point completely on this one. You said that unless his goals where X, Y or Z that the PFC was the best option. Anyone else reading this topic and respecting your opinion (as they have every right to do) will be as misled by your response as much as helped.

So I stick by my original posts.

cheers

That's great and I stick by mine. Trying to get some sensible information out there and making it as clear as possible that each situation, however similar should be assessed according to the needs of the owner and the requirements of the car. Your advice says that for 99.999% of Skyline owners, the PFC is the best option. Like I said, irresponsible.

Adrian

[Swiper the Fox]

If i could afford to id throw my Power FC to the weeds and install a Motec with CDI and dash logger any day. Im starting to pass the collection plate around now...(passes plate to SK)

[NXTIME]

mmmmmmmmm...MoTeC

[2rismo]

Going through the Motec seminar CD, there's some seriously awesome shit that they do that I had no idea was possible. Totally off topic but DAMN!

Too bad they're BAZILLIONS of dollars!

Adrian

[rob82]

Going through the Motec seminar CD, there's some seriously awesome shit that they do that I had no idea was possible.  Totally off topic but DAMN!

Too bad they're BAZILLIONS of dollars!

Adrian

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like what? Please elaborate.

[Warpspeed]

I have recently fitted an Autronic SMC and am EXTREMELY happy with it.

In Queensland contact Ray Hall Turbocharging.

Autronic have a few very sophisticated features that leave every other system far behind. The first is the autotune feature. Yes it will set up your entire fuel map while you drive the car for you. It does require the rather expensive Autronic air fuel meter to be connected to the ECU, and the ECU will then automatically map every fuel site that can be reached on the road. A dyno would be better, and will be needed anyway to map the ignition timing. But even on the dyno, the autotune is much faster and probably more accurate than any dyno operator.

The second outstanding feature is the (private members only) Autronic help Forum. That site offers excellent technical help, it is not a social chat Forum. I installed my SMC between Christmas and New year, and was able to have questions answered personally by Ray Hall within a few hours on Boxing Day. The guy is ALWAYS there to help. I have never had technical help backup like this with anything else, ever.

Autronic users also discuss problems and issues between ourselves. it is strictly technical only, not a social Forum.

The SMC is very easy to install, and for us Skyline freaks, there is a replacement optical disc for the CAS that provides the correctly timed and phased signals for the ECU. Other engines can require distributor modifications which can be a nuisance. But for RB engines it is simple.

My engine started and ran first attempt, the base settings already in there are fairly reasonable, and just about any engine will start and run first go, provided there are no wiring errors.

One thing you will notice, Autronic ECUs never appear secondhand. Never. They are so good that people move them from car to car. They sell the car, but keep the Autronic ECU. They are that good.

Heaps of Motecs and FCs on the secondhand market, but no Autronics.

Motec are a good ECU, but they have this horrible sales and marketing strategy. You buy the ECU, then you have to pay extra for unlocking codes to enable various software features. For instance if you want your ECU to electronically control boost, you must pay extra money to unlock that software. If you want antilag, you pay extra for that too.

Autronic is not like that. You buy the basic ECU, and get the operating manual, and every feature is right there on the computer screen. You can select exactly what you wish the ECU to do to suit any car or engine.

The software is very sophisticated, particularly for idle and engine warm up control. The only thing that the FC has that is missing in the Autronic is the knock sensor input.

[SteveL]

The SMC is very easy to install, and for us Skyline freaks, there is a replacement optical disc for the CAS that provides the correctly timed and phased signals for the ECU. Other engines can require distributor modifications which can be a nuisance. But for RB engines it is simple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Motec operates direct from the stock RB CAS - don't think you can get much simpler than that, and personally I would call having to change the CAS optical disc for a 'special' one a 'distributor modification' of sorts.....

One thing you will notice, Autronic ECUs never appear secondhand. Never.

I've seen a few Autronics advertised on these forums alone. I think your letting your obvious love of Autronic equipment 'blind' you somewhat.....

I use Motec because it is widely recognised as being one of the best - if not _the_ best - aftermarket engine management system available. They're reliable and they work with 99.9% of engines out of the box. OTOH I know a few people with race cars that have had problems with Autronic mainly with issues of getting sensors, etc to work, much like you've admitted to above. That is why I rate Autronic below Motec, but not by much. I accept that you will see things differently and there's no point getting into an argument over it.

I also agree that Motec is 'expensive'.....but as they say, nothing good is cheap. I've also had no real problem getting support from them, but admitedly I know them reasonably well and they are literally just down the road from me (as are Autronic, and Wolf )

[Warpspeed]

I agree that the timing inputs to the Autronic SMC are much less flexible than the Motec, but removing two screws and replacing the optical disc takes about two minutes, you don't even have to remove the CAS from the engine to do it. That can hardly be called a limitation.

You prefer Motec, fair enough I cannot argue with that at all.

But I have some $1,000 dollar spark plugs here for you if you want them, hehehe. They must be better because they cost a lot more, eh ?

Seriously though I can see advantages and disadvantages with both Motec and Autronic. Maybe neither is actually best, just different.

It seems to me that Motec have a totally different sales and marketing philosophy to Autronic. Motec will sell a complete package with all the correct interfaces and software to fit your specific engine exactly. But it would then require buying a whole lot of extra fairly expensive stuff to transfer that ECU onto another quite different engine.

That can be a problem if you buy a secondhand Motec. If it originally came from a V8, and you want to put it onto a rotary, or a V twin Harley, you are going to be in trouble.

Autronic is much more flexible in that the same basic unit will run almost anything, but it just takes a bit of thought to get everything hooked up properly and make the appropriate selections in software.

Autronic needs some thought and understanding. With Motec all you need is money, that is probably the main difference at it's most basic.

[N I B]

Motec is the best Australia has to offer but not the worlds best, that would be the ECUs most F1 teams use and some start at $25000US.

Most ECUs have their place.