Motor Parks:

[GTRgeoff]

Isn't it amazing in a country that worships the Great Race at Bathurst, hot cars in all forms and mourns the passing of a legend like Brocky that we have to pass laws that target "Hooning"? Seems to be a huge gulf between Australians and the people who choose the life of representing and hanging onto their positions representing Australians.

Seems you can't go 5 blocks without falling over a park or open area for playing sport, one of the greatest sources for injuries and operating costs in the community (and especially Defence where I spent plenty of time consulting the safety management database looking at injury rates and causes).

The real cost to the communities of sports is immense but no laws and limits are being passed on that (and god help me, more people die falling off ladders in Oz than from motoring accidents every year), but woe betide someone proposing that we have motoring skills areas in industrial areas or improved driver training standards. All it would take is a number of armco surrounded areas of bitumen or concrete no larger than 100m x 200m and drivers could play, practice and improve to their hearts content without endangering the broader community, or impacting upon their quiet enjoyment. No grass to water or cut and legislation could absolve the states of responsibility if stupid behaviour led to injuries. Regular visits by the boys and girls in blue to talk and involve themselves with that part of community, maybe even the odd demo too would break down some barriers and perceptions.

It's just a concept that can teach "hoons" that motorsport is ok in the appropriate venue, and also provide a safe place for learners to practice parking and a little skid control. Zero tolerance never works, especially in a community where the object of control is a thing of passion and enjoyment.

I'll be looking to move into politics in Qld once there in order to progress this kind of initiative to move away from zero tolerance and back to education and attitudes. It is not fair to provide facilities to some and not to others in the community but we need to make noise to make it happen.

Any thoughts out there?

[GTRgeoff]

I saw the situation in Canberra when the 1/8 mile drag strip closed. While I had little to do with the night time car communities and their gatherings I was subject to the fallout, being a hot car and import owner.

The locals had nowhere to go and nothing to do other than gather at servos and in Braddon. As these things go, illegal drags occured, idiots would leave burning rubber and sometimes a soapy mixture was laid down (I was unlucky enough to drive through it one night after dinner. The crowds became huge it was so popular. I was one other night pulled up in Braddon after dinner with several high profile public servants, some of whom I was driving in the Soarer, some of us with very high clearances and significant responsibility so misbehaviour is not our thing. Until the officers were appraised of our respective positions we were treated like scum. The local response to these illegal gatherings was "Zero Tolerance" but nothing was being done to solve the lack of a location for these kids to burn off their motoring urges. They run the Summernats there which exposes people to the things that happen, but nowhere to emulate some of the activities. they ran the 4 and rotary nats there too until they decided they did want "that type of people" there (what? as opposed to the V8 crowds with the bare chested chicks? Ok a point there.)

Skate parks are popping up everywhere, footy fields are all over the place so why not a motor park? Just a flat piece of tarmac or concrete with armco around it and clearly signposted rules of usage. So much to gain, very little to lose.

It would also be able to take some money from clubs as a location for tarmac motorkhanas.

[N1GTR]

I think its pretty bad overall, the RTA (or relevant state authority) can keep on imposing laws against drivers, but they arent doing anything to solve the issues, they simply turn to quick (cheap) fix's and then gloat how good they are and how it will benefit the public.

Very annoying, especially as the government keeps raising the cost of rego, the last increase was justified by saying the cost will improve the level of care for anyone under 16 hurt in a crash, which straight away led me to think, how about spending the money on stopping crashes instead?

[sav man]

It sounds like a good idea, it will be hard to get through though. As the age old excuse comes up "if they learn how to drive, they will be irrisponsibe and crash". But in reality they don't care about people and their lives, they only care about the revenue (which would drop if people learn't how to drive & had somewhere to play).

Would be great to get something like this.

[blackrex]

Unfortunately, it's still cheaper for the government for people to die in crashes, than either survive them with bad injuries or teach drivers to avoid them completely.

[GTRgeoff]

I'm following you there Steve, in fact I believe road trauma and death gives them the mandate to tighten tolerances and Make more money. But my issue here is not cameras and government corruption, but a place to do car stuff, like skaters have for skating and footeballers have for mankickaball.

[blackrex]

I know where you are coming from. Back a number of years ago I was involved in trying to get a local skatepark built where I lived, the amount of negativety from members of the public and council staff/members was shocking. We where called vandals, hoons (nothings changed ) bums, etc. etc. with Police saying that building the park would increase crims and make the streets unsafe for little old ladies.

I stopped my involvement with the group after 6 or so years of meetings, tours, proposals, votes, cost analysis and so on, the council ended up spending more on investigating the park than building it, but it eventually was built after about 15 years of work by the local skaters.

So it is possible to get things like this done, but how you go about starting it I'm not sure of.

[hrd-hr30]

unfortunately there's two words that will prevent public motorsport venues such as this from ever happening - public liability. an out of control skateboard of football isn't going to kill anyone, so they can do as they please.

[GTRgeoff]

On the contrary Harry, having put considerable time and effort into evaluating the frailties of the human organism (I was a weapons engineer for a while) those things and their associated activity can and have caused death. But the issue is not, I think public liability (councils already maintain hefty cover). Their footpaths will be more dangerous. Due care and caution are often overlooked. This is not the US where such cases will be fodder for ambulance chasers. Usage and attendance can be covered by an own risk law or by-law, much like attendance at a race meeting as a spectator, or even using a parking space wgere you won't have necessarily been provided laws of governance. The Federal Government is already seeking avenues to clamp down on such cases being heard anyway. I have considerable experience in risk assessment and management for much more dangerous activities, and find the risks to be acceptable against the potential return if managed appropriately. Remember, most councillors and government electees are mostly unqualified in technical and governance fields, so influencing them away from the emotion should be achieveable.

Steve, my intent is to seek election to local government, and possibly higher IOT use my background in motorsport and Engineering to bring these and other facilities and logics into the community.

[ish]

Top discussion boy's

not the same but along the lines...

going way back in my area we were granted an international raceway and dragstrip plan ... The town was alight with the news until 2 thing's happened

A doctor living within a resonable distance of the planned area rallied support that the proposed meetings area would disturb his Peace and quiet.......something like 10 days a year spread out!

Winton got on the Attack saying it would Damage there Business and it had the rights to anymotorsport in the region ....

your on the Right path with the Government approach but i believe its hopeless unless you have others on your cause... The councils here have forced this Area to be much more self physical Sports orientated ie swimming ,tennis ,football and weigh heavy to that as there focas!!!

If your local GOV dosent want it then it wont be Built!

Anyway...Only last Night i was watching a private property being a resort station in NZ that lets you race track m, rally Dirt, Shoot guns and fly helicoptors so whats the dame problem here ?

We should all put in for a place like the above mentioned !!!!

[NickR33]

NZ is great... the public liability system isn't setup the same so you can run all kinds of adventure business... when I was in Wanaka (ski town, south island near queenstown) a couple of years ago there was a crazy south african ex stunt/rally driver who had a park with monster trucks, buggies, 4 trax, trail bikes, rally cars you name it they had it... and you could drive/ride them all and it wasn't anywhere near as expensive as you would imagine... they also run one of the best freestyle snowboard parks in the world and can do it comparitively cheaply due to their liability laws...

...but yeah you have my support Geoff, I think its a great idea on many levels

[hrd-hr30]

unfortunately the public liability cover councils currently have definitely do not cover motorsport activity!

spectators at official race meetings are behind fences, safety barriers, and sandtraps, kept away from pitlane and in designated areas to minimse their exposure to risk factors. Public liabilty insurance is provided by the organisers.

for a single entity to get insurance on a facility such as you propose will be prohibitively expensive (which is why CAMS provides it for all motorsport to leverage off a much larger event and competitor base), and will require the mitigation of risk factors by at least imposing some sort of minimum safety standards for vehicles and entrants. that means scrutineering for safety compliance, marshalling the use of the facility, etc.

Al of a sudden its starting to sound very much like the kind of motorsport that already happens all over the place in SEQ - motokhanas/khanacrosses. There's a motorkhana on this weekend for $20. Its already there and easily accessible now - but the people who hang out in maccas carparks and street racing locations aren't interested. its all too hard to get a cams licence and a fire extinguisher.

[r33_racer]

The other problem with the people who hang out in maccas car parks is you dont get near as much street cred for doing racing/skids or the like in a competition or at a track then what you do on the street infront of the cops and rest of the public, cause shit man that stuff really counts when your ultimate goal in life is to be cool. Admittedly it will attract the more sensible folk who would be interested in something like that, but the general 'bogan' population with only half a brain will still be out there ruining the 'car enthusiasts' image.

But the real reason why the falcadoore drivers stick to their carpark antics is because they know they wont do anygood on the track:P

Would you trade ultimate street cred coolness for mass shame??

Im all for your ideas mate and I hope it all goes to plan, cause something is better then nothing. Im behind it all the way. We need more revheads...sorry car and motorsport enthusiasts in government.

[AzzurrA]

i'll quote a letter that i wrote and posted in the QLD section of the forum, in response to this article: Courier Mail:

Mr Warren,

I understand where you are coming from, in saying that drifting, or hooning of any form on public streets is totally irresponsible, and dangerous.

In fact, I totally agree with you and am strongly opposed to people 'hooning' on Queensland (or any) roads.

However, I also see the point that Mr Healy is trying to present.

You say that enthusiasts should attend racetracks, instead of the Mt Cotton Driver Training Facility, to drift.

Why send people elsewhere, when the skidpan at the Mt Cotton Training Facility was purpose built so that people can be taught how to control a vehicle in adverse situations and conditions?

I myself have attended many driver training days at the Mt Cotton skidpan over the years. Whilst there, I learnt how to safely control a vehicle that has entered a slide or is oversteering, by performing some manoeuvres, which would currently be considered (by definition) by the management of the complex as 'drifting'.

These skills have been of use to me in my many years of driving, saving me on more than one occasion, from injury or worse, due to the poor driving ability of some other road users.

The Queensland chapter of the Skylines Australia car club recently had a Skidpan and LVMA driver training session that had been organised months in advance, cancelled, after the announcement was made by the management of the complex that they were banning ‘drifting’, even though the club was not booked in to attend a ‘drift’ event.

This was a pre-emptive cancellation ‘in case’ a participant on the day slid their vehicle a little longer than normal, which would then be considered by the management as drifting.

This ban is not only hurting drifting enthusiasts, who want to practice their sport legally and in a controlled environment, but also other road users who want to learn how to control their vehicle.

The comment by Transport Minister Paul Lucas that "Queensland Transport does not believe it is a good corporate image to promote illegal activity” Is deeply disturbing, as Drifting is a form of Motorsport that is both legal and recognized by the Confederation of Australian Motorsport (CAMS).

Also, where will you suggest enthusiasts go to partake in Motorsport, when there are no tracks left?

The number of race-tracks in Queensland is steadily diminishing. The only 'active' racetracks that are readily accessible to the public are Queensland Raceway, and Morgan Park (excluding street and hill climb circuits, which are usually only open for special events).

This is due to the closure of both Darlington Park and Lakeside, caused by increased pressure from the Government to close them.

This came after residents, who moved into the area knowing full-well that they were moving next-door to a racetrack, complained about the noise associated with them.

Now the Mt Cotton Driver Training Facility is also under attack from residents who have moved in nearby, knowing that there was a driver training facility next door, and are now complaining about the noise associated with it.

Furthermore, there is only one track in South East Queensland that I am aware of that sanctions drifting, and that is Queensland Raceway.

I am not making excuses for ‘hoons’ and saying that it is okay to perform dangerous activities on the streets, however, if you take away the facilities where they are legally and safely able to practice their chosen form of Motorsport, where else are they going to turn?

As Jay Holland points out, Skateboarders have skate parks built for them, Children have playgrounds built for them, and even drug addicts have shooting galleries built for them, yet the Government continues to close down driver training facilities and tracks.

Where will genuine car enthusiasts turn when there is nowhere left to go?

[Kozeyekan]

GTRgeoff, I'm with you that Australians need more driver training, and have more than once thought of trying to find a way to make a legal, safe as possible venue for it.

I used to live in Broken Hill in NSW, and there it was pretty commonplace for dads to take their lads out to the clay pans in a shitbox car and teach them to drive at age 10 or younger.

In these areas, it's almost completly flat, there's a layer of soft dirt about 5-10 cm's thick, and no obstacles for about 30-40 Km's.

I remember my dad taking me there in a sh!tbox gemini that he bought for about $300 for the express purpose of teaching me to drive better.

Now, it's not like I was delivering tofu over Mt Akina, but dad would set up some cones, and tell me to get around them, Occasionally yanking the handbrake or yelling "STOP! PEDESTRIAN" to make sure I was able to recover form unexpected situations.

Now, city drivers don't get this experiance, yet, they have the most need of it due to congestion, and sheer numbers of cars.

Not that I'm some perfect driver, my track times are ordinary at best, but on occasions where I've had to avoid an accident (through my own or others mistakes) those clay pan sessions have quite literally saved my life.

Yet, to do it today would probably be termed 'hooning' Although if they took that same gemini, they'd have to pay more to tow it than what they'd get back form selling it.

The government support aspect is good, but politicians are always fairweather friends. They want to get elected, and will say anything to do so.

If you can tackle it from a road safety aspect, it'd probably get more community support.

Something along the lines of: I don't want my son to die in his car, so I want him to learn how to drive better.

But hey, that's just my opinion. It might seem a bit dramatic, but it really is that simple. In that same country town, each and every year there would be 17-18 year olds who got a job on the local mine or a good decent pay job, they'd buy a commodore and within a couple of months they'd be wrapped around a tree.

Nothing will ever stop 17-18 year old males pushing the limits of everything, including cars. I was no different, but I got lucky a few times, and the training I got helped immensely.

Anyway, if you need any help, or if there is something I can do, feel free to PM me. It's something I've always been interested in, both as a driver education tool, and as a way to just have fun.

[2BNVS]

GTRgeoff- i couldnt agree any more with ur post.... theres nothing to add to it, its just plain common sense, and i like the point

" As Jay Holland points out, Skateboarders have skate parks built for them, Children have playgrounds built for them, and even drug addicts have shooting galleries built for them, yet the Government continues to close down driver training facilities and tracks."

ESPECIALLY THE DRUG ADDICT PART

you cant get much worse so where does that put us, at the top of the worst list...

they need to get it together and use their brains for once!

[Big Trev]

Firstly I haven't taken the time to read all the posts and being new here I will be careful with what I say.

I have worked for near on 20 years as a "defensive" driver trainer, firstly for one of Australia's largest driver training companies and in more recent time for a TAFE.

I also spent far too many years as part of the VicSES getting called to all types of motor vehicle incidents (I don't call them accidents, as they aren't)

I am not a big supporter of off-road type driver training, yes it can hone the skills to RESPOND to an emergency situation for SOME people, unfortunately research done by major insurance companies and risk managers inside large multi-national organisations suggests that all this type of training does is increase incidents, mostly rear-enders and the reason? People are taught their limits and being the type of animal we are we will always push the limits.

We are natural risk takers, if we weren't we would still be hanging around in trees, the risk taker in us is what drives us onward and upward.

I don't think we will ever be able to train that out of humans, it is too much of a natural response. Unfortunately some people don't live to enjoy the spoils of "risk taking" behaviour.

I am a believer great that any training is better than no training, but unfortunately our Government(s) don't take driving seriously.

In a recent past life I worked as a OH&S professional and using the logic of OH&S Risk Management and using the Heriachy of Control, the best way to fix motor vehicle incidents is to have the machine (car/truc/bus/motorcycle) so that it can't hurt anyone.

Current technology is doing a great job of this, with air bags, seat belts, crumple zones, etc, etc, but there is more they can do to protect us from ourselves. If you have a machine in say, the manufacturing industry that kept hurting people it would be tagged out and not to be used until it was "fixed"

I am a great believer in making the car more safe, there is much much more they can do.

And know to be really controversial, I believe that all cars MUST be speed limited to 120km/h, they do it to trucks and buses (and yes I know that there are fast ones out there), but the concept is a good one.

We must be protected from ourselves, we can't rely on people to do the right thing because they won't/can't, and the 16-30 ages is when we are at our worse.

Edited September 22, 2006 by Big Trev

[NickR33]

We must be protected from ourselves, we can't rely on people to do the right thing because they won't/can't, and the 16-30 ages is when we are at our worse.

ooooh now that is a dangerous statement... and i have 2 words for you 'natural selection'

You CANNOT protect people from themselves and you shouldn't... you can only educate people and then step back and hope they make the right decisions... and if they don't, let's hope to god they live to fight another day and learn from their mistakes

If you are constantly protecting people from themselves they lose their ability to behave as an individual and make their own choices... so what you are saying is people are free to make their own choices as long as in your opinion they are the right choices... sounds pretty fascist to me

[Big Trev]

ooooh now that is a dangerous statement... and i have 2 words for you 'natural selection'

You CANNOT protect people from themselves and you shouldn't... you can only educate people and then step back and hope they make the right decisions... and if they don't, let's hope to god they live to fight another day and learn from their mistakes

If you are constantly protecting people from themselves they lose their ability to behave as an individual and make their own choices... so what you are saying is people are free to make their own choices as long as in your opinion they are the right choices... sounds pretty fascist to me

I'll point you to my statements about OH&S, workplaces, Hierachy of Controls and say "we do it now in thousands of workplace in Australia" and I can almost guarantee your health and safety has been protected because of this philosphy. The road and vehicles are the workplace to many, many thousands of people. Edited September 22, 2006 by Big Trev

[Duncan]

you are dead right. the sooner speed limits are dropped to 0 the sooner there will be no road accidents