2008 F1 Season

[dezz]

On another note, I wouldn't say that the majority of drivers are on LH's side...

8 of the 20 current drivers have stated that they agree with the stewards decision. That leaves 12 drivers. Minus the 2 McLaren drivers who are obviously on McLaren's side, and you're left with 10.

Now I'm no mathmetician, but that results in a 50-50 split, and thats assuming that the remaining drivers that haven't spoken out, disagree with the stewards.

[dezz]

Yeah i dont really care so much if we dont agree.

So you dont think the FIA have manipulating anything?

The very least they could do is modify the rules to keep that thing we tune in to week after week consistent - the racing.

What point is there in strangling a guy for making a wicked move to take the lead? Are you not the same guy who was bitching in the past about there being no overtaking in F1 any more?

You should run for PM, Dezz.

The answer to more passing in F1 doesn't come by cutting chicanes. I'm the same guy that also said, anyone can pass anyone, if they don't make the corner.

Your post on the last page pretty much says that you're happy for anyone to cheat, as long as they're trying to pass. I don't even need to tell you how ridiculous that is.

[m3gtr]

On another note, I wouldn't say that the majority of drivers are on LH's side...

8 of the 20 current drivers have stated that they agree with the stewards decision. That leaves 12 drivers. Minus the 2 McLaren drivers who are obviously on McLaren's side, and you're left with 10.

Now I'm no mathmetician, but that results in a 50-50 split, and thats assuming that the remaining drivers that haven't spoken out, disagree with the stewards.

Get it right for once, will you?

Some may agree but they said and i will repeat myself for you for the 10th time " The punishment did not fit the crime."

Far out man, youve got a hard head.

So if that was NOT the right punishment according to the majority of the F1 paddock - including said current drivers, then what was according to the gospel of Dezz?

[m3gtr]

The answer to more passing in F1 doesn't come by cutting chicanes. I'm the same guy that also said, anyone can pass anyone, if they don't make the corner.

Your post on the last page pretty much says that you're happy for anyone to cheat, as long as they're trying to pass. I don't even need to tell you how ridiculous that is.

FFS! He gave the place back!

I wish you would try and stop yourself from manipulating what i try and express.

You take it whatever way you will.

I dont think, and this is the last time ill say it, that LH "cheated"

You do, thats fine. Others do too, but the crowd is massively split on the "crime" and the "punishment"

What does that tell you if you bothered to stop and actually think about it for once.

can you not look at the bigger picture here instead of squinting through your FIA magnifying glass for once??

[dezz]

Get it right for once, will you?

Some may agree but they said and i will repeat myself for you for the 10th time " The punishment did not fit the crime."

Far out man, youve got a hard head.

So if that was NOT the right punishment according to the majority of the F1 paddock - including said current drivers, then what was according to the gospel of Dezz?

Oh my. 4 of the drivers that said they agreed with the stewards, said they thought it was a shame that LH was stripped of the win. They didn't say the punishment didn't fit the crime, because it did. The punishment was a 25 second penalty in place of a drive through penalty that obviously could not be served.

I'll say it again for your benefit. The punishment was a 25 second penalty, in place of a drive through penalty that could not be served. The penalty was not being stripped of a race win. That was the result of the penalty.

It's unfortunate for Lewis that it cost him a win, but he broke a rule and was punished accordingly.

Exceptions should not be made because of what the end result may be. Crime A = Punishment A. In this case, gaining an advantage attracts a drive through penalty, or a 25 second penalty, and that 25 second penalty put Lewis in 3rd place.

[dezz]

FFS! He gave the place back!

I wish you would try and stop yourself from manipulating what i try and express.

You take it whatever way you will.

I dont think, and this is the last time ill say it, that LH "cheated"

You do, thats fine. Others do too, but the crowd is massively split on the "crime" and the "punishment"

What does that tell you if you bothered to stop and actually think about it for once.

can you not look at the bigger picture here instead of squinting through your FIA magnifying glass for once??

At the end of the day, what you THINK, means sweet f**k all.

The stewards believe LH gained an advantage, and punished him accordingly. That punishment just so happened to cost him a win.

Your problem is that you are making a connection between the penalty (25 seconds), and the fact that it took him out of P1 and into P3. There is no connection to be made.

Can't put it any simpler than that

[m3gtr]

Oh my. 4 of the drivers that said they agreed with the stewards, said they thought it was a shame that LH was stripped of the win. They didn't say the punishment didn't fit the crime, because it did. The punishment was a 25 second penalty in place of a drive through penalty that obviously could not be served.

I'll say it again for your benefit. The punishment was a 25 second penalty, in place of a drive through penalty that could not be served. The penalty was not being stripped of a race win. That was the result of the penalty.

It's unfortunate for Lewis that it cost him a win, but he broke a rule and was punished accordingly.

Exceptions should not be made because of what the end result may be. Crime A = Punishment A. In this case, gaining an advantage attracts a drive through penalty, or a 25 second penalty, and that 25 second penalty put Lewis in 3rd place.

Alright, cool.

1.Would you have done the same thing as the stewards in Spa?

2. What do you think of the decision to give FM a fine for his pitlane antics when there were other "options" available - the stewards choosing the most lenient one? Or the decision to not give KR a meatball flag, allowing him to drive a potentially hazardous car around for 20 odd laps?

3. you say Crime A: Punishment A. Do you not think there should also be punishment B and C or just A by itself?

And finally, the best one

4. If there was option A, B and C, would you still choose to hit him with A even though a more lenient B and C were available as options taking into account all you have seen?

Thats for everyone by the way, not just Dezzo.

[dezz]

Alright, cool.

1.Would you have done the same thing as the stewards in Spa?

2. What do you think of the decision to give FM a fine for his pitlane antics when there were other "options" available - the stewards choosing the most lenient one? Or the decision to not give KR a meatball flag, allowing him to drive a potentially hazardous car around for 20 odd laps?

3. you say Crime A: Punishment A. Do you not think there should also be punishment B and C or just A by itself?

As you've told me so many times, I'm not qualified to make the call. The stewards are in place to do just that. People posting in here have already told you from first hand experience in that department that its not an easy job. You're never going to be the nice guy.

My personal opinion on Massa's pit lane exit is that, if anything, Ferrari as a team should be fined, as they're responsible for releasing the driver. In that instance (yes even if it was McLaren) I think it would be wrong to punish a driver unless they were found to break early (before the green light/raised lollipop). It's not like a 10,000 Euro fine is going to phase Massa or Ferrari, but to punish a driver for being released by his team seems wrong in my opinion.

As for Kimi, again, I'm not qualified on the specifics of F1 parts. My recolection of that race is that Kimi was pretty much by himself the entire time, so the likliehood of it causing an incident if it had broken off would be reduced in that instance. Maybe that was taken into account.

As for point 3, all I'll say to that is what I've said already. I believe that you need to step back and differentiate between the penalty and the result. The penalty for that particular incident is a drive through penalty. The penalty when a drive through cannot be served (last lap of the race, or when the decision is made post race etc) is 25seconds on to the drivers total race time.

If Lewis had finished 26 seconds in front of P2, then he would have still finished first, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. He didn't finish 26 seconds in front of P2 or P3, and as a result was classified in P3.

[dezz]

Point 4 was added later obviously..

I don't think there should be A, B, C D E F G H..... I think it causes even more problems. If they hit him with B you'd still want to question why they didn't hit him with C instead

In this case there seems to be A(drive through) and A1(25 second penalty)

At tracks with longer pit lanes, the 25 seconds may even be an advantage over the drive through...

[m3gtr]

As you've told me so many times, I'm not qualified to make the call. The stewards are in place to do just that. People posting in here have already told you from first hand experience in that department that its not an easy job. You're never going to be the nice guy.

My personal opinion on Massa's pit lane exit is that, if anything, Ferrari as a team should be fined, as they're responsible for releasing the driver. In that instance (yes even if it was McLaren) I think it would be wrong to punish a driver unless they were found to break early (before the green light/raised lollipop). It's not like a 10,000 Euro fine is going to phase Massa or Ferrari, but to punish a driver for being released by his team seems wrong in my opinion.

As for Kimi, again, I'm not qualified on the specifics of F1 parts. My recolection of that race is that Kimi was pretty much by himself the entire time, so the likliehood of it causing an incident if it had broken off would be reduced in that instance. Maybe that was taken into account.

As for point 3, all I'll say to that is what I've said already. I believe that you need to step back and differentiate between the penalty and the result. The penalty for that particular incident is a drive through penalty. The penalty when a drive through cannot be served (last lap of the race, or when the decision is made post race etc) is 25seconds on to the drivers total race time.

If Lewis had finished 26 seconds in front of P2, then he would have still finished first, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. He didn't finish 26 seconds in front of P2 or P3, and as a result was classified in P3.

That is where you are dead wrong.

This is the FIA regulation for leaving the pit lane: 23.1

i) It is the responsibility of the competitor to release his car after a pit stop only when it is safe to do so.

After reading this can anyone tell me why Ferrari were not penalised and not Massa?

The competitor refers to the driver.

Case closed.

It was NOT the team but Massa who was responsible.

[m3gtr]

And i believe there should be a range of options available on this type of thing because, the offense was marginal and the penalty extreme.

A grid penalty, a larger fine, loss of constructor points...

Not what is currently in place.

[djr81]

And i believe there should be a range of options available on this type of thing because, the offense was marginal and the penalty extreme.

A grid penalty, a larger fine, loss of constructor points...

Not what is currently in place.

Apparently they could have decided on a ten place grid penalty for the next race but instead chose a fine/time penalty depending which incident everyone is whittering on about presently. Sorry I can't keep up.

Then of course there is the option of a $100 Million fine. But somehow they resisted that aswell.

Edited September 12, 2008 by djr81

[Beer Baron]

i believe by 'competitor' they mean the team member responsible for releasing the car. the driver is not the only 'competitor' in the team and it most certainly is not the drivers call as to when it's safe to leave his pit box. that is just stupid. if it were up to the driver half the time they would be driving off with 3 wheels on, or half a tank of fuel etc. it's the crews responsibility to release the driver safely.

[Duncan]

well since I'm in a pedantic mood in this thread, the only competitors are the driver and the entrant (Ferrari cheaters inc or whatever they are called). But certainly it is the driver's responsibility to enter the circuit safely not the entrants

[dezz]

I'd like to see you sit in an F1 car, surrounded by a pit crew, and judge whether or not its safe to merge into the pit lane

[m3gtr]

i believe by 'competitor' they mean the team member responsible for releasing the car. the driver is not the only 'competitor' in the team and it most certainly is not the drivers call as to when it's safe to leave his pit box. that is just stupid. if it were up to the driver half the time they would be driving off with 3 wheels on, or half a tank of fuel etc. it's the crews responsibility to release the driver safely.

So thats why your superlicense was provoked...

[ctjet]

... revoked?

[Beer Baron]

So thats why your superlicense was provoked...

provoked? eh?

as for you dundan:

"well since I'm in a pedantic mood in this thread, the only competitors are the driver and the entrant (Ferrari cheaters inc or whatever they are called). But certainly it is the driver's responsibility to enter the circuit safely not the entrants."

yeah I agree. the driver is the competitor, and I guess you would call the team the entrant. but the team have a bloke who is responsible to release the driver from his pit box safely. the driver relies on that bloke 100%. when he says nail it, the driver nails it. sure I agree the driver has to enter the circuit safely on his own smarts, but leaving his pitbox to get into the pitlane that timing is all up to the team. the driver can't see bugger all with a dozen blokes huddled around his car he just has to trust them that when they say go, he can go.

[Beer Baron]

can't afford a super licence any more. and besides, now that they charge 1 X 11ty mil euro per championship point I would be flat bloke with all those points I'd be winning. nasty. I'm fair happier steering my armchair.

[m3gtr]

So thats why your superlicense was revoked...

fixed

Where the f**k did i pull provoked from??

Oh thats right - thats me dealing with Dezzmondo