Gym And Supplement Discussion

[hazjaz]

I hit up my workout B last night (bi's forearms calves hami's squats) and didn't feel it like I did with the workout a/how I usually would if I was to train legs or arms.. I don't know if this is because I usually overtrain these parts or if I didn't train them enough last night. I felt a bit of a burn while training them but that faded as I went to the next exercise. The routine was

Biceps; 3x10 RPx10,9,9

Forearms; 3x10 RPx10,8,7

Attempt at extreme bi stretch

Calves - attempted this on the 45 degree leg press and seated calve raise with a 10-12 sec negative and didn't get much of a burn

Hami's - 2x10 RPx8,6,5

Squats - 3x8

Any suggestions on what I could've done wrong?/what I should do different

[bozodos]

I'd suggest putting the whole DC training thing on pause until you've trained on a 3 day a week beginner program and built some more strength up first. That looks like a fairly meh workout to me; lots of little assistance things with squats at the end, while you're a beginner you might as well take advantage of the fact that you recover quicker than a more experienced trainee.

Edited May 1, 2014 by bozodos

[Birds]

Terrible workout

Hamstring curl before squats? lulz thread is in the wasteland.

Beginners gotta stop adopting programs of people who have surpassed the need for a beginner style program.

Ditch the isolation shit and hit the compounds hard a few days a week. Eat a truckload of food, get a good sleep and use your rest days for rest. Watch yourself get bigger and stronger than ever with the least time you've ever spent in the gym.

Also, doms and "burn" aren't the best indicators of a good workout; you can get both these from doing 300 reps of 3kg bicep curls.

[No Crust Racing]

I've gotta say, I was a bit paranoid about having to cut back on gym time (too busy these days) so I get around 40-45mins instead of 60-70, but I've mixed up the workload more, dropped rest between sets, using almost exclusively compound exercises and my weight and strength are both still solid for me.

Quite happy with that TBH.

Edited May 1, 2014 by ActionDan

[France]

Biceps; 3x10 RPx10,9,9

Forearms; 3x10 RPx10,8,7

Attempt at extreme bi stretch

Calves - attempted this on the 45 degree leg press and seated calve raise with a 10-12 sec negative and didn't get much of a burn

Hami's - 2x10 RPx8,6,5

Squats - 3x8

Any suggestions on what I could've done wrong?/what I should do different

That's a rubbish routine

You're a beginner, you should be concentrating on compound movements.

[France]

Beginners gotta stop adopting programs of people who have surpassed the need for a beginner style program.

+1 completely agree with this

[hazjaz]

Didn't realise I was speaking with a bunch of pro lifters lol

[No Crust Racing]

Well now you know

[Birds]

I hold the record for strongest deadlift in my street, in the 79kg 6'3 class. Feel free to have a go at breaking it.

[No Crust Racing]

lol

[L33SH]

I do about an hour less in the gym each session now, also 4 less exercises each session than I was doing a year ago and I am stronger these days

[No Crust Racing]

An hour less PER SESSION?!

How long was a session before hand 0_0

[L33SH]

An hour less PER SESSION?!

How long was a session before hand 0_0

2 hours, now I do 1 hour

[No Crust Racing]

Yeah, no thanks

[L33SH]

Well I had the mindset that more is more... now I have the mindset that less and compound movements are more

[Dajae]

DC training appears to be a bodybuilding program.

Not a strength program.

So with that in mind, its focus is asthetic goals.

If its more fun than arnies or ronnies program for you then just do it. Like everything else if you want the results of the guy who thought of it then you are out of luck. without the same genes and the juice program And more importantly the actual effort capabillity .People focus too much on the pro program as a means to the same results. there is night and day in what a punter considers a max lift effort or lift to 'failure' vs a good or professional athlete.

Yes, it is largely for those looking to add mass. But, I'm terribly sorry - if you went from doing 50kg squat for 6, to doing 100kg squat for 6, you just got stronger.

Wanting the results of the guy that created is a moot point, since no one has stated that's their goal. This is not a "pro" program as such; I don't see it being flogged around. Sure, a few pro's use it, but that's because they approached Dante. A lot of the great results have been with guys that don't use any kind of drug enhancement. Sure, they aren't going from 70kg to 110kg monsters in 2 years, but they're getting good results.

Agreed, it takes a certain psychological strength to push past mental blocks when training.. usually only those athletes who are 'good' as you say, or professional, have this ability.

I hit up my workout B last night (bi's forearms calves hami's squats) and didn't feel it like I did with the workout a/how I usually would if I was to train legs or arms.. I don't know if this is because I usually overtrain these parts or if I didn't train them enough last night. I felt a bit of a burn while training them but that faded as I went to the next exercise. The routine was

Biceps; 3x10 RPx10,9,9

Forearms; 3x10 RPx10,8,7

Attempt at extreme bi stretch

Calves - attempted this on the 45 degree leg press and seated calve raise with a 10-12 sec negative and didn't get much of a burn

Hami's - 2x10 RPx8,6,5

Squats - 3x8

Any suggestions on what I could've done wrong?/what I should do different

Good effort, but not quite there..

Your bicep exercise. Unless you're a genetic freak, something isn't right about your weights used, or the effort you put in, or the rest-pausing. RP of 10, 9, 9 ... If you do a proper rest pause, your sets would look something like this - 10, 6, 2. Or something to that effect. I'd say your first set you didn't go to true failure, and if you did, you took too long between sets.

Forearms are just straight sets. You've got to remember your forearms get a lot of indirect work with other exercises.

Legs have to be dead straight, and you have to be honest with how far you let the bottom stretch portion go. The negative is the easy part, holding it completely stretched for 10 seconds is not so easy. The weight should be such that by the 10th rep, your legs are shaking.

Looks like your hamstring exercise was done a bit better. Maybe throw in one more warm up set.

Squats... way off, sorry dude. You should be working your way up in weight, doing sets of 6, until you get to a weight that 6 reps becomes a life or death situation. Then, take only enough rest to get your breath back (usually 90 seconds for me), reduce the weight a little bit, and go for 20 reps. The weight you choose to try and get 20 reps, is a weight that you can normally only get for 10. If you still feel like you "didn't train enough" after doing this properly, I'll buy you a beer.

And like others have said, experiencing "burn" or DOMS is not an indicator of muscle growth. If anything, it's the indication of the opposite.

I'd suggest putting the whole DC training thing on pause until you've trained on a 3 day a week beginner program and built some more strength up first. That looks like a fairly meh workout to me; lots of little assistance things with squats at the end, while you're a beginner you might as well take advantage of the fact that you recover quicker than a more experienced trainee.

"assistance things" ... you seem to think this is a power lifting routine.

However.. I might have to agree with the rest of your points.

Terrible workout

Hamstring curl before squats? lulz thread is in the wasteland.

Beginners gotta stop adopting programs of people who have surpassed the need for a beginner style program.

Ditch the isolation shit and hit the compounds hard a few days a week. Eat a truckload of food, get a good sleep and use your rest days for rest. Watch yourself get bigger and stronger than ever with the least time you've ever spent in the gym.

Also, doms and "burn" aren't the best indicators of a good workout; you can get both these from doing 300 reps of 3kg bicep curls.

It's a good routine; he just did it sub-par. 5/3/1 is a good routine; I'm sure I can find some training logs somewhere that make it a "terrible workout".

So, you have this thing about doing anything before squats/deads, but you haven't really given great reasoning as to why yet? Aside from the possible hindrance bicep curls could have to deadlifting, seeing as though they are under tension.

There is no reason why he can't do some 'isolation' work alongside the compounds; besides, this program calls for doing a heavy compound movement 3 - 4 times a week (if trained on a EOD rotation). Agree with the rest though - eat, sleep, rest (even though walking is active recovery and has been shown to decrease recovery times), and that results can be achieved in less time than most think.

That's a rubbish routine

You're a beginner, you should be concentrating on compound movements.

You guys have this fondness of bagging routines, but you're not giving sound theories as to why they're rubbish?

hazjaz;

This is my log from training on Monday: (all warm ups are 10 rep sets unless otherwise stated - RP=rest pause, SS=straight set)

EZ-Bar Preacher Curl - 10kg, 15kg, 20kg, 25kg, RP-35kg, 23,10,8. (Reps are way too high, need to increase weight a whole lot)

EZ-Bar Reverse preacher curl - 10kg, 15kg, SS-35kg, 10.

Leg press calf raise - 60kg, 80kg, 100kg, SS-130kg, 12. 10 second negative, 8 second hold in stretch position, 2 second hold at top.

Lying leg curl - 32kg, 46kg, 67kg, RP-77kg, 10,5,4.

Squat (warm ups done for 6 reps) - BAR, BAR, BAR, 40kg, 60kg, 80kg, 100kg, SS-145kg, 6 reps. Reduce weight to 117.5kg, 21 reps. (New PB)

Both sets of curls were done in such a way, that you would think my head was about to explode.

The calf raises, by the end of it.. f**k me. My legs were shaking, and I couldn't walk properly.

The leg curls, same thing. I felt nauseous afterwards. My hamstrings were so pumped, that doing the stretches for them, felt like pure agony.

Those squats drilled me. That 21 rep set was a mission to complete. By rep 15, my mind had already started to give up. By rep 17, I nearly gave up. By rep 20, it felt like my lungs were on fire. After racking the bar, I quite literally dropped to the ground.

This is the kind of intensity you need to bring to the program, otherwise you won't see results.

If you're finding it hard to get around the routine, then it might be an idea to do what some of the other guys are recommending. DC training is good, it gives you great results, but it takes a certain amount of focus, intensity and consistency.

[bozodos]

I'd be pissing off the preacher curls - not good for your arms. Do standing ones (I prefer straight bar but not everyone has the wrist flexibility). Basically there is too many exercises with too much volume, and compounds should be done first, and heaviest, not at the end of a workout. I personally hate calf raises - you can do them til the cows come home, and I can bet you your legs won't grow appreciably at all. 20 rep squats at light weight are a good way to ensure that you're not going to be putting more weight on the bar effectively either.

That is in regards to Hazjaz btw.

The reason we keep going on about it is because Hazjaz is obviously a beginner in terms of results and type of programming; trying to adapt advanced / intermediate routines for beginners and majoring in the minor shit is a fail, I know this from personal experience.

Generally leg machines are used as the assistance lifts to the big one - the squat. If you want to specialise in just growing muscles that's fine, but it's not the best method to take when starting out, and it's not as efficient as building up a decent amount of strength first.

Edited May 2, 2014 by bozodos

[Dajae]

I'd be pissing off the preacher curls - not good for your arms. Do standing ones (I prefer straight bar but not everyone has the wrist flexibility). Basically there is too many exercises with too much volume, and compounds should be done first, and heaviest, not at the end of a workout. I personally hate calf raises - you can do them til the cows come home, and I can bet you your legs won't grow appreciably at all. 20 rep squats at light weight are a good way to ensure that you're not going to be putting more weight on the bar effectively either.

That is in regards to Hazjaz btw.

The reason we keep going on about it is because Hazjaz is obviously a beginner in terms of results and type of programming; trying to adapt advanced / intermediate routines for beginners and majoring in the minor shit is a fail, I know this from personal experience.

Generally leg machines are used as the assistance lifts to the big one - the squat. If you want to specialise in just growing muscles that's fine, but it's not the best method to take when starting out, and it's not as efficient as building up a decent amount of strength first.

Agreed, preacher curls aren't for everyone. I also like standing barbell curls.. using a bit of body English for the last rep or two means you can use a weight slightly higher than normal; note the keyword being 'bit'.. Too many guys turn it into some kind of bastardised power clean. I guess we're agreeing to disagree about what exercises should come first. Agree with the calf raises part, we established the results will largely come down to genetics. Who said anything about "light weight"? I thought I made it pretty clear that this was a decently heavy weight..

I know that was in regards to Hazjaz, but just wanted to comment anyway

It's not impossible to adapt a more advanced routine for someone with less experience.. I've done it with 2 guys who have had no prior weight lifting experience, and they are getting great results. Although, I concede, this could be due to the fact of face-to-face interaction and support.

I still don't see how it is such a big issue to have a supplemental exercise being trained alongside the squat. Programming the squat in this fashion (keeping heavy sets in the 4 - 6 rep range) is perfect for strength gains, with enough TUT to allow for adequate hypertrophy. The heavy 20-rep set performed only further facilitates this. Besides, it's almost legend how effective heavy weight, high rep set squats are for leg development.

Agree strength is a big player in all things, though.

[rev210]

Id like to qualify that by a strength program I meant something that is not "incidental" and relative as it is in the DC program.no intent to disrespect the program.

A 100kg squat is stronger than 50kg but, this program is unlikely to efficiently deliver rapid strength gains on anyone other than a beginner or a complete slacker. And as agreed it is because its an asthetic program. Strength gains are a bonus and necessary incidental benifit but , volume appears to be the main effective vehicle of hypertrophy in the program.

If that makes sense.

[The Bogan]

EPIC posts, and just to stir the pot a bit more, I claim that under grasp heaves/chins/pull ups are the best exercise for the bicep.

Ive attached my latest if anyone CBF looking, its a slightly modified 8 6 3 from blackironbeast web site, start week 2 on Monday.

I just print it off and tick next to it if I get it and record reps for my + set.

_EXCEL_PROGRAM_4_DAY_4_WEEK (1).xls