Spark Plug Electrodes Gone Through Engine.. Repairable?

[3LGODZILA]

u mean this guy heated then up till they were glowing?

[Adriano]

What pistons are they? I would probably get a new block over getting 2 sleeves put in, ends up costing about the same without the potential of sleeve dramas.

[jarrod83]

They are cp pistons, getting the ceramic shop to sand them down and recoat them at 30$ a piston, they are also going to touch up the ceramics of the head.. ill see if i can find any suitable blocks, they are very rare these days.

[GTRNUR]

Just thought I'd clarify the issue with the rapid cooling a little more...

It probably wasnt the carby cleaner that didn the plugs in. Remember the story of the marble heated with a cigarette lighter and then dropped in a cup of water... well its the temperature differential and sudden change from hot to cold that causes the cracks to occur in the material. Barely 200 degrees is enough to do damage. This is because the outer material cools at a faster, and un-even rate to the inside.

Then consider a plug heated till its glowing red with a 2000+ degree flame. Glowing means the material was above 1200 degrees. Just cooling in air would be fast enough to cause thermal shock to the materials, as the temperature differential between 25 degrees (air temp) and 1200+ is great!

I'd be asking the shop to source you a replacement block and to pay for the machining and re-assembly at the very least.

A sleeved block can potentially behave a little differently to a non-sleeved block, as the sleeve material is slower to transfer heat to the block. The only real difference is that you have to warm up more carefully and only punish the engine ones its at operating temperature. Though I think this behavior is more of an issue with big cylinder bore engines (4"+ bores) than a tiny 87mm piston.

[jarrod83]

Thanks for the clear up GTRNUR, i much appreciate it, and it does make alot of sense now exactly what happened, anyone got any ideas the best way to approach them with this situation.. at this point, i still dont think they are accepting they are responsible or even partly responsible.. but i havent been in much contact with them, i was thinking maybe about asking them to meet me halfway and cover half the expense of the rebuild. Ill give it a few weeks for me to cool down though before i try and contact them again.

Jarrod

[jarrod83]

i sure hope my turbos okay :S some bits of ceramic insulator made its way into the cat

[Adriano]

I wouldnt wait, go and see a solicitor, then see what he recommends.

[Checkbuzz]

This "mechanic" of yours sounds like a total dick head mate. I've never heard of something so stupid in my life.

If he won't play the game (i.e. paying for a complete rebuild) then I would be rounding up a few of the boys and paying him a visit.

I certainly wouldn't take no for an answer

Edited August 18, 2010 by Checkbuzz

[TiTAN]

This "mechanic" of yours sounds like a total dick head mate. I've never heard of something so stupid in my life.

If he won't play the game (i.e. paying for a complete rebuild) then I would be rounding up a few of the boys and paying him a visit.

I certainly wouldn't take no for an answer

thats a great way to get yourself charged with assault.

[Trozzle]

Not to mention I'm sure you could get someone else to do it for much less than the cost of the rebuild.

[Ultimategtr]

From what the OP is saying, the tuner OFFERED to do it, as a service, regardless of whether it was payable for or not, while working on his car, which would all be included for in the price of the tune and all anyway.

If the OP had personally asked the tuner to blow oxy at it, then it would be a different story. Because the OP trusted the tuners work, he thought he would let him do what he thought best for his car.

Its very easy for the tuner to say its NOT his fault. It might have been over torqued unintentionally, esp when it was hot. If the tuner offered to blow the plugs free of charge, then he should have installed them as well. Thats pretty careless to me, considering he is meant to be the professional here. After all he was relying on the OP to install the plugs CORRECTLY, before ramping it up to full load on the dyno.

Im not sure whether you guys have the Fair trading act over there, but I would put him down for Neglegence and serious mis-conduct. OP has evidence as well - ceramic bits, right? I would say the tuner is fully responsible, and should cop up AT LEAST 80% if not 100% of the cost to get this fixed.

[scotty nm35]

Small claims tribunal nearly always rules in the customer's favour.

No need for violence...

[GTRNUR]

Small claims tribunal nearly always rules in the customer's favour.

No need for violence...

Correct! And most reputable businesses have professional indemnity insurance anyway that covers them for this kind of accidental damage anyway.

Definatly let your head cool down before you talk to the guy again or make any deals as such. If you do think it will end up a small claims issue, at the most inform him that it is your intention to have the matter resolved that way, but you need to give him the opportunity to resolve the matter with you directly.

[jarrod83]

I'm probably not going to worry about pursuing the matter any further, i have been speaking to the tuner and they do not want to accept responsibility for it, but have offered to find me a replacement block. I have worked out that there is about 1200$ worth of damage to the head, block and pistons not including the damage to the turbo. The head and pistons are getting lightly sanded and re-ceramic coated by the shop that originally coated them.

With the oil pump failure i was already looking at replacing the bearings, crank, oil pump and possibly get lewis engines to re do the honing and balancing and replace the rings and install some cams and valve springs, so of the roughly 5k i was already going to be spending i will be looking at roughly an extra 1500 tops as long as i don't find any more damage, i don't feel its worth the hassle of going to small claims and putting everyone out of place over 1200-1500 for something i cant be 100% sure that it was their fault however probable.. yes it sucks but i suppose thats life. Plus the solicitor will probably cost me more than that anyway.

As for the incidence i have done alot of ringing around, i spoke to a NGK specialist and was told they fail 99.9% of the time from people over torquing them and that there is no way to determine what caused them to fail. I can say i 100% dont over torque my spark plugs as i always grip the ratchet directly over the spark plug and do them up about a fraction of a turn from hand tight, i change them every 4000kms, to have 5 break at once whilst never changing the method is very in probable to say the least.

Is it at all possible that when the spark plugs fouled up that the engine may of become flooded and cracked them from increased pressure due to fuel?? You would think if they were to crack then that the ceramic insulator would of fell apart then aswell.. as i said though you can never really be 100% sure with anything =/

Kind Regards

Jarrod

[wolverine]

I applaud your pragmatic decision sometimes being and proving you are right costs you more in hassle factor.

[Trozzle]

Personally I would still stick it to the flamin mongrel, but that's fair enough.

Obviously you're never taking your business to this tuner again, right?

[jarrod83]

probably not, theres a very short list of descent tuners where i am located, i will definately never be leaving my car alone with a tuner again though. Just noticed that one of the tips on one of the spark plugs actually melted into a ball-like shape, so they definately must of had some heat put through them.

Jarrod

[30ed32]

thats a lot of cash.. I could never let something like that slide

[Simon-S14]

geeze this tuner sounds like a complete moron.

in the past ive only ever used a ciggy lighter to burn fuel and oil off along with a light sand with emery paper if needed.

[GTScotT]

Considering the circumstances of the oil pump dieing, I would be asking the tuner to sort out re coating your pistons and head. If any damage was done to the rear wheel of the turbo that too.

That much seems fair, a full rebuild does seem a touch rich when the bottom end would need redoing at no fault of his own. It is right to say he is a total goose and should pay to rebuild your motor, but you would have had to do the bottom end either way, so why fight that. More hassle than its worth.

I would definitely proposition him to pay for the ceramic works a new turbo wheel if need be and put the matter to rest. Offer for him not to worry about finding the new motor as that much is what he is responsible for and the rest was out of his control to an extent. If he tries to deny liability in total, remind him he is offering to buy you a new bottom end and that by any legal standard is him fulfilling his obligation of taking responsibility (this is how we screw insurance companies that will say we hold you at fault but willing to let it slide).

I feel for you man, must suck. GL