Kando Dynamics Turbo

[Lithium]

Here's a plot from the tuning with boost about as stable as we could manage:

[STATUS]

Here's a plot from the tuning with boost about as stable as we could manage:

AdrianDyno.jpg

not to be rude or nitpicking but that dyno is using din (american scale) which gives higher readings. should be on SAE2004.

[Lithium]

Here's a plot from the tuning with boost about as stable as we could manage:

AdrianDyno.jpg

 

not to be rude or nitpicking but that dyno is using din (american scale) which gives higher readings. should be on SAE2004.

It gives higher readings than some of the dynos over there, yes - but it is what it should be as it is what we have been using for years and what we are used to. If I had completed the tune as I wanted etc without time and patience constraints then I would have pissed around with getting another print out with a different calibration for the benefit of people here but I figured that given the difference between the corrections is not huge and the main purpose was to show how it comes on etc I figured it would be still interesting to some.

[STATUS]

It gives higher readings than some of the dynos over there, yes - but it is what it should be as it is what we have been using for years and what we are used to. If I had completed the tune as I wanted etc without time and patience constraints then I would have pissed around with getting another print out with a different calibration for the benefit of people here but I figured that given the difference between the corrections is not huge and the main purpose was to show how it comes on etc I figured it would be still interesting to some.

Results are always useful i just noticed the correction, wasn't sure if you knew about it or not. The DIN system uses a different equation, so it varies quite a bit.

[Lithium]

Yeah for sure, have played with all of them to see the general trends on them - we've had pretty consistent results with DIN which is the main thing I am worried about.

Because enough has been mentioned I decided to recalculate the peak numbers mentioned to SAE J1349 correction, peak power would have been 241kw in the dyno plot shown above and on soft timing when it crept out to 20psi we saw just over 260kw. How do those numbers fit with what you'd expect?

Will try and get another dyno run with it when we work out what has caused the random onset of boost creep, and try and get an SAE J1349 corrected run.

[Dale FZ1]

Lithium that looks like a pretty tidy result. I'd like to see the boost plot, and the softer timing map to get a better feel. Interested to know if it was timing-sensitive the same way it was making more power with higher boost. Couldn't imagine that with ethanol blend you were knock limited?

What does it run for exhaust manifolding, and is it an external gate setup?

[Lithium]

Lithium that looks like a pretty tidy result. I'd like to see the boost plot, and the softer timing map to get a better feel. Interested to know if it was timing-sensitive the same way it was making more power with higher boost. Couldn't imagine that with ethanol blend you were knock limited?

What does it run for exhaust manifolding, and is it an external gate setup?

Sorry, didn't print the boost plot - however I have a boost plot from the last logged road test it had before the dyno (nothing had changed aside from timing between this test and the dyno, and the creep was still there when timing came back in) so will attach those.

Here is a screen shot from the log from the last road test before the dyno - this was using Link boost control to hold 19psi to make sure we could, to prove we had boost control (ironically... bastard thing):

And this is with Link boost control turned off on the dyno, so just wastegate boost:

And in case you wonder, we did try bringing on boost control to see if having it run more boost low down will somehow use strange fluid dynamic properties to combat creep and no- it seemed that no matter what it wanted to creep above 5000rpm, we could just control how much. It also would hold 10-12psi on the road previously... but now it doesn't. Currently exploring the possibility that something in the dump pipe is blocking flow.

What do you mean by the softer timing map? I had tuned the car entirely on the road (funnily enough) and it has been running for a good year+ on that tune until now.... I used a mixture of educated guesses and input from VirtualDyno/KnockBlock to make sure things seemed reasonably within territory for that tune. I dialled timing back around 7 degrees (depending on where in the map) just before putting it on the dyno so I was likely to be able to find gains by adding timing instead of having to go back and forth. As it turned out I was usually within 2degrees, if not literally bang on the timing I decided on with the dyno tune - which is nice.

I was not knock limited on ethanol at all, it would have definitely gone over 270kw with more timing - and also more rpm, we just had no intention of running it to that boost level. The car is running a china stainless stock location manifold and an internally gated T25 flanged antisurge 3" inlet TD05-16G6 8cm unit

[Dale FZ1]

And in case you wonder, we did try bringing on boost control to see if having it run more boost low down will somehow use strange fluid dynamic properties to combat creep and no- it seemed that no matter what it wanted to creep above 5000rpm, we could just control how much. It also would hold 10-12psi on the road previously... but now it doesn't. Currently exploring the possibility that something in the dump pipe is blocking flow.

What do you mean by the softer timing map? I dialled timing back around 7 degrees just before putting it on the dyno.

I was not knock limited on ethanol at all, it would have definitely gone over 270kw with more timing - and also more rpm, we just had no intention of running it to that boost level. The car is running a china stainless stock location manifold and an internally gated T25 flanged antisurge 3" inlet TD05-16G6 8cm unit

It does seem odd that the boost creep just "appeared" prior to the dyno session without any apparent changes. Gives some weight to the idea that a mechanical issue has emerged with the wastegating or dump area, whether the WG valve isn't moving through its full range, actuator has some sort of problem? I did wonder if there were any known/common problems with the housing design in a IW setup.

I may have not interpreted correctly how your ignition mapping went - thought you had chased a few figures and then backed timing out for road use - hence the question about "soft" maps. I was trying to get a feel for what sort of full load timing you've given the thing with ethanol.

The 16G Evo spec is obviously able to keep going at high PR, you'd have to chalk this one up as a good unit for high-ish boost applications. What's your view on this engine/turbo/manifold combination for a 2wd rally car but limiting boost and power to 180-190rwkw?

[Lithium]

It does seem odd that the boost creep just "appeared" prior to the dyno session without any apparent changes. Gives some weight to the idea that a mechanical issue has emerged with the wastegating or dump area, whether the WG valve isn't moving through its full range, actuator has some sort of problem? I did wonder if there were any known/common problems with the housing design in a IW setup.

I may have not interpreted correctly how your ignition mapping went - thought you had chased a few figures and then backed timing out for road use - hence the question about "soft" maps. I was trying to get a feel for what sort of full load timing you've given the thing with ethanol.

The 16G Evo spec is obviously able to keep going at high PR, you'd have to chalk this one up as a good unit for high-ish boost applications. What's your view on this engine/turbo/manifold combination for a 2wd rally car but limiting boost and power to 180-190rwkw?

Sorry I thought I had mentioned, we actually held the swing arm open to full swing to test it as well - so eliminated the actuator itself, though dump pipe etc need to come off to investigate further. At this stage I can see no reason why the Kinugawa unit itself should be blamed, as again it held boost fine for a while and the actuator at the very least is not the cause... at least that I can see.

In terms of the mapping, sounds like you have the gist of what happened now anyway - but for what it's worth I don't go for full MBT with tuning, at least on cars like this which all of their kms are hard, especially on a completely unopened motor on a track car... so that 250kw (or 241kw SAE2004) is a REAL number, where I wanted the tune to be... not one I leaned on to show off. We were going to do a 20psi power run so he could have lols at drags and show off what it'd do on 20psi, but that also would have been with a "as it drives off" state of tune - as people may figure (definitely those who know me will know) I am all about making the engine happy, and being excited when I find out the number is good.... as opposed to obsessing about the number itself. There may have been more kw in there for the taking if someone wanted to push it, but imho not enough to justify the extra strain.

For what it's worth, here is the compressor map for the 16G6 compressor:

Fwiw I use lb/min = CFM / 14.4718, so by 1bar of boost you are looking at around 40lb/min of flow - it'd make >190rwkw pretty happily on the right setup even without running a lot of boost however on 1.8bar it gets up to ~43lb/min of flow which is pretty decent going - if anything it's going to make that power on pump gas happily, and with headroom.

What engine would you be running on the rally car? The design has obviously been used on 2litre AWD 4cyl rally cars for AGES now so obviously a fairly known combo, it feels very usable on the SR20 imho though each to their own. It isn't as jumpy as the old PE1420, you can feel response time - but it is really good for the power you can get from it and the cost, imho.

Here is a snippet from that road test where the car is rolling around a corner at part throttle in 2nd and then feed into it - I know it looks like the boost climb is laggy when you glance at it (as with the rpm), I zoomed in to the point that the time splits are small enough to give an impression of what is happening when.... this is with 10hz logging too, so things will look more progressive than they really were due to interpolation by PCLink software to pretty the graphs.

I'll let your draw your own conclusions from it, but again when seeing 16psi by 4500rpm it's worth noting that .3s earlier the driver was at half throttle/3800rpm/6psi and it took .2s from that point to hit full WOT

[Dale FZ1]

_{Engine is an SR20, which might explain questions about the manifolding and gate setup. We've considered how good the engine/turbo combination works on an Evo, so it surely couldn't be too bad on an SR running 2wd., At our power target these turbos should be pretty understressed, and the ability to quickly achieve max boost (even if it is only 12-13psi) is pretty important. Your datalog pretty much answers that question.}

_{For the cost these things are really worth a close look}

[Lithium]

Agreed, so far (will confirm when we identify the cause of the boost creep) it seems like a good thing - basically it was settled on due to the fact it should flow more than enough for a stock SR20 between 10-20psi (and we had 250+kw DIN as a target on E85), and offer good response and generally nice driveability as this will be used for track and gymkhana type events - and it seems like it is very well suited so far. Sounds pretty cool, too- haha

[GTScotT]

Dale might I add your requests are not out of scope for an OEM T28..... Have a look at the below video.. The yellow S14 sports an OEM T28.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MhIXT_ZeFw

[funki_munki]

Dont have a dyno sheet on me atm as im away at work, but will upload when i can.

R34 GT-T 4 Door

Internally stock Neo motor

Splitfire coil packs

HDi cooler w/custom piping

3" exhaust w/100cell metal cat

Tomei type A poncams

MSLR head gasket

Arp head studs

PnT Performance intake manifold w/r33 s2 throttle body

650cc Siemens Deka Injectors

Aeroflow high flow fuel rail

Turbosmart FPR800

Walbro 255lph fuel pump

Hybrid Performance top mount exhaust manifold (hopefully upgrade to a 6boost when funds allow)

Turbosmart Compgate 40

Kando TD06H 60-1 w/anti surge front housing and 10cm rear

Gizzmo IBC

Nistune

Car made 310rwkw's and 620nm of torque @ 18psi on BP98, full boost hits at 4000rpm. Since it was finished its been back on the dyno and its still pulling consistent numbers, last 3 runs if i remember correctly were 309,311 and 313 and i still get over 450kms to a tank of juice

Heres the dyno graph, i know the dip looks massive but its not noticable when driving, think its go something to do with my manifold design?

[Dale FZ1]

Heres the dyno graph, i know the dip looks massive but its not noticable when driving, think its go something to do with my manifold design?

I think it's more likely related to the VCT action. Look at it this way, from 125-200+km/h you have at least 550N on the torque graph, meaning a max variation of 12% from peak. I'd say that makes for a pretty forgiving driving package in terms of gear changes etc.

I'd be pretty sure you could produce more stick and get rid of the dip purely by playing with boost control from that rpm range onwards - if you chose to. Provided the engine is happy, and you find it's good to drive, why change anything? Running 18psi and 310kW it's not highly stressed and should live a decent length of time.

[Dale FZ1]

Dale might I add your requests are not out of scope for an OEM T28.....

That's true, however this setup is running a well ported head. The OEM turbo makes no more power from 13-16psi and the consensus is that it can't flow any more. No restrictions in the inlet or exhaust, however the stock exhaust manifold is on the to-do list after this season. The actual power number is deflated somewhat by the use of gravel rally tyres, so it does pretty well.

The TD05 seems a good option because this thing is not a one-trick pony. It does tarmac sprints as well, so the option of running 1.2 -1.3 bar and getting 240ish kW looks attractive to the owner.

[funki_munki]

I think it's more likely related to the VCT action. Look at it this way, from 125-200+km/h you have at least 550N on the torque graph, meaning a max variation of 12% from peak. I'd say that makes for a pretty forgiving driving package in terms of gear changes etc.

I'd be pretty sure you could produce more stick and get rid of the dip purely by playing with boost control from that rpm range onwards - if you chose to. Provided the engine is happy, and you find it's good to drive, why change anything? Running 18psi and 310kW it's not highly stressed and should live a decent length of time.

Yeah i am pretty happy with the results,there is a problem in 5th which i've been told is due to the design of the manifold, if im in 5th and try to come onto boost the car hesitates massively and looses power, haven't done it a lot as i don't spend much time in 5th at higher rpm, not sure if anyone else has had this problem?

but other then that the car is a dream to drive around the street, low end power is decent, enough to drive around at under 3500 and still have poke to get into traffic and that way the ext gate doesn't let rip so i dont get those awkward stares from other motorists lol

[Dale FZ1]

If you have a hesitation issue then I would look at the tune - perhaps accel enrichment

[GTScotT]

That's true, however this setup is running a well ported head. The OEM turbo makes no more power from 13-16psi and the consensus is that it can't flow any more. No restrictions in the inlet or exhaust, however the stock exhaust manifold is on the to-do list after this season. The actual power number is deflated somewhat by the use of gravel rally tyres, so it does pretty well.

The TD05 seems a good option because this thing is not a one-trick pony. It does tarmac sprints as well, so the option of running 1.2 -1.3 bar and getting 240ish kW looks attractive to the owner.

I see, the TD05 sounds promising in this case. The high PR capable 16G6 will suit the application even more so if a restrictor ever needs to be used.

This isn't the blue S15 I see catching air everywhere I look, is it?

[Lithium]

That's true, however this setup is running a well ported head.  The OEM turbo makes no more power from 13-16psi and the consensus is that it can't flow any more.  No restrictions in the inlet or exhaust, however the stock exhaust manifold is on the to-do list after this season. The actual power number is deflated somewhat by the use of gravel rally tyres, so it does pretty well.

 

The TD05 seems a good option because this thing is not a one-trick pony.  It does tarmac sprints as well, so the option of running 1.2 -1.3 bar and getting 240ish kW looks attractive to the owner.

 

I see, the TD05 sounds promising in this case. The high PR capable 16G6 will suit the application even more

Because we have no other great ideas the waste gate port has been opened up some and we'll give it a road test this weekend to see if it helps with the creep

[GTScotT]

Fingers crossed

Was the cross section measured before you got the grinder out? I believe Kando sells that housing in 2 specs, one as cast and one with a 34mm flapper.