Rb25/30Det

[R32Abuser]

Report back with results

Will do. Cross my fingers everything goes well and the issues dissapear. Got in contact with Sydneykid and he has given me some points of reference to start at with regards to troubleshooting. Hopefully he narrows it down and fixes the problem.

Quoting Sydneykid aka Gary,

Camshaft timing, I haven't had one RB30/26/25 that hasn't needed adjustments in the camshaft timing. The block height, belt length and tensioner location all affect the camshaft timing. Retarded inlet camshaft timing and/or advanced exhaust camshaft timing will cause detonation every time.

This is also what Cubes suggested aswell. I think maybe chucking a set of regrinds may help. This is something I will do in the coming weeks/months.

He also suggested using a different spark plug heat range (7's as opposed to what is in there now (6's)). Something simple which can make the difference. Also suggested a leak-down test to check the run in has gone according to plan.

Running in takes 20 -30 mins - get a proper tune and see what it can do.

Problem is if it pings/knocks etc. with the new CAS and other gear then we cant get a proper tune as it will end up destroying the motor. Not really something I want to do given the amount of money and time which has been invested.

Edited July 22, 2011 by R32Abuser

[TiTAN]

He also suggested using a different spark plug heat range (7's as opposed to what is in there now (6's)). Something simple which can make the difference. Also suggested a leak-down test to check the run in has gone according to plan.

Problem is if it pings/knocks etc. with the new CAS and other gear then we cant get a proper tune as it will end up destroying the motor. Not really something I want to do given the amount of money and time which has been invested.

my engine would ping its ass off when i put heat range 6 plugs in it by accident.

heat range 6 plugs + 300kw on 98 is not a good choice, on a dedicated E85 car its less of an issue.

[R32Abuser]

my engine would ping its ass off when i put heat range 6 plugs in it by accident.

heat range 6 plugs + 300kw on 98 is not a good choice, on a dedicated E85 car its less of an issue.

Yeah. I have a good feeling that this definitely would not be helping the cause with regards to keeping pinging at bay.

Will be changing them for the tune on Monday.

[Cubes]

I hope this doesn't come across as too harsh

I found 250rwkw + needed 7's to to have the plugs looking the way they should after a wot power run. No internet mechanics or I've read. 6's however up to 300rwkw did seem fine however they came out looking a little too hot.

I went from 6 to 7's hoping it would help ping when mine was making 268rwkw @15psi but really... no difference. Only difference is the plugs looked how they should after a wot power run on the dyno.

8's were clearly too cold when pulled out at near 300rwkw. Power or its sensitivity to det - I didn't notice any difference at that (>250 <300rwkw) power level.

Either way... your running 6 heat range sparkys, stock cams making 207rwkw and its running in to det problems. Something is wrong. Changing plugs or cams isn't going to make much of a difference unless there's an issue with cam timing thats rectified when changing the cams.

You need to locate the problem and rectify it before spending more on it.

TBH... get it to a different tuner for diagnosis - a tuner that is not willing to check the CAS at the balancer with a timing light or run a quick leak down while its on the rollers isn't worth a pinch of salt. One reason I'll always head back to boostworx even with the now (yes I feel dirty) VE SS.

Post the dyno sheet... I'm curious to see what the power delivery looks like.

[R32Abuser]

I hope this doesn't come across as too harsh

I found 250rwkw + needed 7's to to have the plugs looking the way they should after a wot power run. No internet mechanics or I've read. 6's however up to 300rwkw did seem fine however they came out looking a little too hot.

I went from 6 to 7's hoping it would help ping when mine was making 268rwkw @15psi but really... no difference. Only difference is the plugs looked how they should after a wot power run on the dyno.

8's were clearly too cold when pulled out at near 300rwkw. Power or its sensitivity to det - I didn't notice any difference at that (>250 <300rwkw) power level.

Either way... your running 6 heat range sparkys, stock cams making 207rwkw and its running in to det problems. Something is wrong. Changing plugs or cams isn't going to make much of a difference unless there's an issue with cam timing thats rectified when changing the cams.

You need to locate the problem and rectify it before spending more on it.

TBH... get it to a different tuner for diagnosis - a tuner that is not willing to check the CAS at the balancer with a timing light or run a quick leak down while its on the rollers isn't worth a pinch of salt. One reason I'll always head back to boostworx even with the now (yes I feel dirty) VE SS.

Post the dyno sheet... I'm curious to see what the power delivery looks like.

Not at all harsh. You know I respect your advice Cubes

Plan is to try the stuff I mentioned first (CAS, Plugs etc etc whilst on the dyno). If nothing comes of it, then put a safe tune where it wont knock at all (who cares about power). Drive it to get some k's on it.

Then Im not sure where to go from there. Ive emailed several tuners and got their advice. So we'll see how we go from there.

Either way if this doesn't fix it come Monday, Ill be taking it somewhere else for a 2nd opinion/fault check.

For now, Im just looking forward to Monday to see if anything will change and to get my car back...FINALLY!

Edited July 23, 2011 by R32Abuser

[Bl4cK32]

no news is good news?

[Rolls]

no news is no news according to david, they were busy and didn't do anything.

[R32Abuser]

Just thought I'd update with whats going on with the car.

So todays events went as follows:

Wish I could have been present but was unable to due to work. However they (builder and tuner) tried a few things. Not as many as I would have hoped but still...

Things which were changed

a) spark plugs

b) CAS

c) timing

d) tune

Ok, so car rocked up on the dyno. Builder/tuner verified timing/base timing, checked a few things, then proceeded to do the first run. What do you know- it didnt ping/knock at all. Made about 225-230RWKW with bugger all timing again (probs in the vacinity of 7-8 degrees). Boost was apparently around the 15psi mark but the tuner had to redo the boost control as for some reason it was all over the shop.

So on the story went, and the more runs they did, the more the engine wanted to knock. That was until the 7th or 8th run loading it up etc. and then it went back to how it was the other week. Tuner tried a few things, chucking more fuel in, playing with timing etc. Then the tuner/builder decided to just give it a safe tune with bugger all timing (6 degrees) where I presume it wasnt pinging too bad (apparently). For some reason the boost was left at like 17-18 psi. To me I see this will cause more detonation when its just not needed!

Back to square one...

So the builder drove it back to the workshop. Said the thing would ping at anything up around the 5000RPM mark, not even thrashing it too much. So the decision was made by him and myself not to drive it at all.

On the positive, I guess the conclusion could be that this problem is somewhat heat related. Heat Soak? The cooler was cold to touch on the outlet side, and warm to hot on the inlet side. Crossover pipe was warm to hot to touch but nothing too bad. Have you guys got any ideas as to any potential problems you've had previously with heat and anything like this? As for intake temps, I wasnt told anything, as I had limited time to speak with the builder. But will be doing so quite soon.

Just brainstorming, but coil packs could almost be ruled out. These would usually cause a misfire and a lack of ignition and "WRX" sounding motor, rather than knock. Igniter was also suggested-not entirely sure whether this would cause the same issue as coil packs but its something to try.

One thing a mate suggested was to drop the dump. See if its backpressure causing excessive heat.

Got any other suggestions?

Builder wants to try cams. But Im sceptical. Im at my wits end and most likely want to take it to another tuner for trouble shooting.

Any help you can provide would be great!

Cheers,

David

[DVS JEZ]

Too much compression, incorrect squish causing 2 flame fronts and Hot spots in the chambers etc are also a possibility.

What was the inlet air, water and oil temps?

[R32Abuser]

I havent yet ruled out compression as being the issue...

However, from all the information I have infront of me (without pulling the head etc off/apart), the static C.R. doesn't SEEM to be the issue. 9:1 isn't overly high, and I have it on good authority that you can run more (A respected builder/tuner built one to run on pump fuel @ 10:1!!!) and not have issues.

Squish is as above. Will not know without pulling the head off.

Trying to track down a dyno graph or at least some data to work with. This is the downside of not being able to be present when the motor is being tuned

[KiwiRS4T]

How do you know the CR is 9:1? Is that a calculation based on the pistons supplied or a measurement? Have you done a compression test?

[R32Abuser]

based on the pistons supplied; HG supplied; rods; deck height is below 0 (builder verified) but I calc'd it at 0 deck height for worst case scenario; head cc (based off 4 other people with the exact same head getting 62cc and all within 1cc of each other); and various other calls i made to verify the specs. I called Brad and he pulled up the original purchase/order.

Measurement can only be done if we strip the motor down. Something I dont want to do at this stage.

Compression test came back at around 160 psi each cyl.

[Bl4cK32]

if its perfectly fine when cold, then specs are ok. Time to start looking at things like you mentioned exhaust and other things that get affected by the heat.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Bl4cK32

[wolverine]

It isn't something silly like the timing belt being out one tooth. Guilt Toy struggled with his RB30 until he re-timed it from scratch in complete frustration at being unable to take timing or make power.

[Bl4cK32]

timing has been checked apparently, but i still personally think its time for a second opinion.

[R32Abuser]

Builder told me he took the timing cover off and checked it. Said it was timed correctly.

If the head comes off, this will be done again anyway. Along with CC'ing the combustion chamber, and checking deck height.

This will be done as a last resort though...

[bubba]

deck height is below 0 (builder verified) but I calc'd it at 0 deck height for worst case scenario;

Can someone explain this to me please?

My understanding was that if deck height it below zero that means the block has been decked, the more you take off the block the more the pistons will sit proud of the block and the more the compression ratio is increased..

[wolverine]

Builder told me he took the timing cover off and checked it. Said it was timed correctly.

If the head comes off, this will be done again anyway. Along with CC'ing the combustion chamber, and checking deck height.

This will be done as a last resort though...

Guilt Toy checked the timing a bunch of times but and it looked fine up top but was still out one tooth. Shoot him a pm and see what he says.

[Bl4cK32]

Can someone explain this to me please?

My understanding was that if deck height it below zero that means the block has been decked, the more you take off the block the more the pistons will sit proud of the block and the more the compression ratio is increased..

depends on the piston height to start with. Cubes and i used rb25 weiscos at the time we did ours and had to deck the blocks to make the pistons sit flush due to the lower pin height.

[R32Abuser]

Can someone explain this to me please?

My understanding was that if deck height it below zero that means the block has been decked, the more you take off the block the more the pistons will sit proud of the block and the more the compression ratio is increased..

I may have it back to front as I said previously, but either way, the piston is sitting down the bore and not proud of the block. Hence my compression ratio will be less than a calculation at a 0 deck height.