LS1 / SKYLINE Dyno Day Results

[whatsisname]

Originally posted by GTR King

If fuel doesnt go thru the turbo eg fuel injected how can it get on the turbo ? cam overlap ? i thought skylines had direct port injection correct me if im wrong.

Brad,

In a nutshell - Exhaust gas flows through the turbine wheel (which spins the turbine, it turns the compressor & so on...) Therefore any unburnt fuel (& octane booster) goes through the same path i.e. through the turbine wheel & out the exhaust system.

In the case of anti-lag systems (as used on rally cars) LOTS of fuel goes through the turbo, basically turning it into a form of jet engine!

[Freebaggin]

Guys,

Soarer:

I simply do not believe the Soarer has standard turbos. Until I see the full mechanical and tuning specifications for that motor then as far as I'm concerened the turbos are either high flowed standards or something like two Starlet turbos bolted on, whatever. You simply cannot get more power (i.e. 280rwkW) out of just tuning an engine and putting the right cams on there etc etc if the turbos are rated at 220-230rwkW (which they are), they are the governing factor.

Tuning:

It is not fair to simply dismiss the 11.2:1 AFR for Whatsisname's car as poor. If you recall, an article in HPI had the tuning of an R33 in it and the best power was obtained at 11.8:1 with a standard turbo. With Matt's bigger turbo and the inherant high comp ratio (and therefore high peak cylinder pressure), Tim obviously finds he gets more "safe" power by running a richer mixture but also with lots of ignition advance. If you lean it of a bit you have to bring back the timing at the expense of power and throttle reponse.

If you could get back to us Matt on either what Tim says or what you're gonna do that would be interesting.

[GFXman]

Slightly off track here, but Jaffa wants me to ask what GOKU has done to his commie to get his 300+ rwkw. Is he using a blower or just excellent tuning etc?

[whatsisname]

Bags,

A/FR's on the rich side = less chance of the warmer weather & a poor batch of fuel ending them long term fun "Safe" is how I like to play it I prefer to go fast for a long time than a quick bang! That said I'll see how much leaner I can go without pulling timing out of it. I'll let you know mate.

If I had the contacts & resources Martin has then my car would be #1 guinea pig for sure! I'd push the limits of stock EVERYTHING (right down to the power I could pump out of the cig' lighter ) But alas I have to work to a budget, & therefore prefer things not break.

I don't know a huge amount about the CT12's (or any of the OEM Toyota turbo range) so if Martin has managed to squeeze 280+rwkw using untouched OEM CT12's then I'm not one to argue( I'm impressed!).

As printed in HPI #25 - "A brief run @ 1.2bar showed mid 250's would not be out of the question, although failure wouldn't be too far away."

You'd have to think the reliability factor of the "tiny ceramic turbines" is being pushed on 1.2+bar though (as Martin would agree).

GFXman,

GOKU is blown (7psi I think?) & intercooled, plus all the usual fruit.

[Martin Donnon]

Originally posted by Freebaggin

Guys,

I simply do not believe the Soarer has standard turbos.  Until I see the full mechanical and tuning specifications for that motor then as far as I'm concerened the turbos are either high flowed standards or something like two Starlet turbos bolted on, whatever.

I dont do this stuff to impress others, or to keep secrets. Thats not what I do for a living. Rather its my job to try things that havent been tried before, and report the results. If the turbos made 220, then thats what they make. They happened to turn 281rwkw on the day. Thats what they make. Starlet turbos dont fit. I wouldnt waste my money on a 'Hiflow' conversion. Believe what you want.

You simply cannot get more power (i.e. 280rwkW) out of just tuning an engine and putting the right cams on there etc etc if the turbos are rated at 220-230rwkW (which they are), they are the governing factor.

What you are saying WOULD be true IF the turbos were rated at 220 - 230rwkw. I have no documentation stating this, neither I am sure, do you. Toyota dont release compressor flow information publicly. A quote from my installment in HPI28 on stands in Dec/Jan -

"Soarer turbochargers are misunderstood, misconstrued, and sadly maligned. Next time someone tells you they are ‘junk’, 'fragile', or only capable of 220 and something rwkw look them in the eye and ponder ‘Does this clown really know what hes on about?’. Then go somewhere else."

Tuning:

It is not fair to simply dismiss the 11.2:1 AFR for Whatsisname's car as poor.  If you recall, an article in HPI had the tuning of an R33 in it and the best power was obtained at 11.8:1 with a standard turbo.  

There is a BIG gap between 11.2:1 and 11.8:1.

With Matt's bigger turbo and the inherant high comp ratio (and therefore high peak cylinder pressure), Tim obviously finds he gets more "safe" power by running a richer mixture but also with lots of ignition advance.  If you lean it of a bit you have to bring back the timing at the expense of power and throttle reponse.  If you could get back to us Matt on either what Tim says or what you're gonna do that would be interesting.

You may notice that the RPM dyno doesnt have mixture logging as part of its configuration, just the AFR meter readout. Nothing wrong with that, just dont expect acceleration mixture - as happens on the road, and on a dyno power run - to be the same as steady state, constant load - which is commonly used in dyno tuning. Both excessively rich mixtures and over advance both lower the knock threshold of an engine....as do excessively lean mixtures. That engine, presented as it was on the day, was tuned nowhere near its power potential, nor is being excessively rich to be considered 'safe'. There is much more there if the management is capable of being carefully and most importantly consistently calibrated.

FYI I ran, and do run the Soarer in its 281rwkw guise at a consistent 12.3 - 12.5:1 AFR - it was on the graph - with up to 18 deg timing on board at any time. I also have a detonation indicator, as part of the Power FC, which allows me, in part to make serious, and power productive tuning decisions.

[Bugalugs]

Martin,Did you get hold of the software for the PowerFC that Mark was talking about.

Matt

[whatsisname]

Martin,

Yeah I agree my engine isn't running to its full potential (atm). I put that down to a grand total of ~1.5hrs tuning so far, including a small amount of on road work (i.e. accel). Give me time, something I have less of than $ these days!.

With most manufacturers using what we in the modifying game would call rich mixtures, from the factory, I'm not too concerned about 11.2 A/FR for the time being. Better to be too rich than too lean @ least. But better to be spot on . How's your Microtech tuning skills Martin?

You've gotta' admit my engine looks nice & clean @ least

Out of interest, how far can you push the stock 1JZGTE injectors? What size are they?

"Winner of the longest post in this thread goes to.......Martin"

[Chris32]

I must admit, I thought that when it made 280 odd, I thought that it definatley had differant turbo's on it. I was under the impression that 220 was pushing them to the limit, from what I have read.

But if Martin says they are stock, well its his car and I reckon we should take his word for it.

From my understanding (limited), as with most modern turbos, the only thing holding the Soarer's turbos back, is the wheels falling off. With the modification to the dump pipes to the car as shown in HPI, I reckon the reduction in turbo back pressure and temperature would be immense, therefore allow the turbo's to make 1.2bar+ and still keep the wheels on them. Is this the case?

Was there any testing/logging of exhaust/turbo temps done?

Anyway, all I can say is that is tuned well with the mods it has and made 280 odd at the wheels on the same day, temperature etc as when most of us ran on the same dyno. Can't argue with that

Matt - at least with your computer you can make adjustments, and anyway, its all about optimising what you have. Now you know what to tackle next

Chris

[GTR King]

I agree with Martin, i have seen many weird combos that produce strange power results and power figures over what many consider imposible. As for saying Martins blowing in the bag, i think thats very rough, Its his job to experiment and report results , not to lie about it and lose customers over it. Geez if he says it does 280 it does.

Edit - Sorry Brad just doing my job mate. Before things get too out of hand!

C'mon guys play nice now

[whatsisname]

Guys,

As you can see I've gone edit crazy:looney: I didn't want us to lose this thread as it's got some interesting info within it

If anyone has a drama with the editing of the posts please PM me.

Now keep up the interesting/valueable info!

:grouphug:

Matt

[Martin Donnon]

The 33 engine bay was clean, damn clean, as was the rest of the car. Those close enough would have heard me say it was damn near, if not, the nicest 33 I have seen, and Ive seen plenty of the buggers both here and in Japan. Hats off. Doesnt make up for lacking what you have acutally paid for though.

Whatisname you are in the luckiest position of all. All you need to fix your car is some tuning and a better turbocharger. Thats what stands between you and 300rwkw. Believe it or not. A bolt on HKS GTRS turbocharger, combined with 550cc injectors / 1.5 bar of boost and 300 is your oyster. Simple. Microtech computers are not hard to tune, in fact simplicity for non qualified operators is one of their attractions.

As for the suffering old Tojo, the Soarer turbos were hot, damned hot, capable of soaking even the HKS GTR Circuit Spec intercooler quickly. They were far from efficient at 280rwkw, couldnt make any more boost, and would not be my recommended choice at such power levels. BUT they didnt break, and I have blitzed those poor buggers hard, darned hard. Dont point fingers at the dyno either.

If any of you went to Adelaide Autosalon when certain 380rwkw cars were making 300rwkw and others even less I put the Soarer on the dyno to give it a tug before cams etc. Even when it made 248rwkw on Tilbrooks for a HPI story in an open dyno bay, it made 239rwkw on Morpowas dyno at Salon....in less than optimum, and warm, conditions. I didnt mind that at all, neither did the 2 or 3 hundred witnesses.

Freeball, think before you make offensive, and simply dumb comments, lets see your car on the dyno, and have it compete with a bolt on stock tuned car like Whatisnames or mine, and we will go from there. If you can keep the pace, then great, if not, accept you have something to learn, and not from being a smartarse.

[whatsisname]

Martin,

Thanks for compliments & heads-up on future modifications. I really appreciate it! I've read a little about the HKS GTRS, I'll be reading more now. The stock head gasket is my only other concern, but nothing a decent ~1.5mm one won't fix.

Something that hasn't been mentioned on here in regard to the super Soarer, its exhaust note. It sounds awesome! Similar to that of a strong 20B rotary.

Originally posted by Chris32

Matt - at least with your computer you can make adjustments, and anyway, its all about optimising what you have. Now you know what to tackle next

Yeah too true Chris. I'll get there in the end

[Martin Donnon]

Originally posted by whatsisname

Martin,

Thanks for compliments & heads-up on future modifications. I really appreciate it!   I've read a little about the HKS GTRS, I'll be reading more now. The stock head gasket is my only other concern, but nothing a decent ~1.5mm one won't fix.

I dont want to sound like an old woman here, but leaving the compression of the RB as tall as possible by retaining the stock head gasket would be part of my plan. The only thing that ever damages them is detonation, and good tuning keeps that from occurring. Ive seen the stock gaskets perform reliably at 330rwkw +, so you shouldnt have a problem.

As far as compression is concerned, consider when Munros 3 litre engine was pulled down and reassembled that the target compression was raised from 8.6:1 - 9.05:1. The same goes for the other 'big' GTR we are screwing together at the moment, a road car using a strict diet of 98 octane unleaded and 1.7 bar (max) boost. Its been constructed at 9.2:1.

If I spent a couple of hours on your combination, as is now, we should be able to squeeze it quite happily to 260rwkw. If you want to take me up on the offer I will help you FOC. Just cost you a feature in HPI. Is all.

Something that hasn't been mentioned on here in regard to the super Soarer, its exhaust note. It sounds awesome!  Similar to that of a strong 20B rotary.

I dont know why, but the Z family of engines 1J/2J sound much different to the RBs. Theyhave really odd shaped exhaust ports which obviously contribute. BTW Whatisname I have the turbos off my car, sitting on the bench at GT Autosound in Glynde, so if you are popping past, come have a look, and verify that they are indeed stockers!

[Cubes]

Martin when I was looking in to the RB30DET conversion the bloke that was going to rebuild the motor said that he would use a set of forged pistions that would up the compression to 9:1.

He said that 9:1 is the way to go and there is no need what so ever to lower it if you tune the motor correctly.

He was building a motor at the time which he adapted the oil squirters and O-Ringed the block. He also said that he was using the Genuine Nissan Head Gasket.

This motor would was going to be getting 350rwkw.

Matt on that note have you thought about O-ringing your block, I don't know exactly what positives it has when running really pushing your motor apart from not blowing a head gasket?!?

Any 1 care to elaborate?

[GTR King]

well i reckon my beastie took honours in the noise level for the day hehe. Martins car does sound nice and has a posative note to it, not to loud not to quiet but just right, and it has balls to go with it.That black HSV who evers it was sounded pretty killer as well:]

[whatsisname]

Martin,

I've noticed most Japanese tuned GT-R's running 9.0+:1 compression. Even the Gibson Motorsport Grp A GT-R's ran 9.5:1 comp' ratio.

In a nutshell - HELL YES! That is an offer far too good to refuse :uh-huh: THANKS! Let me know when suits you best & I'll be there. I should be able to manage a day off work if need be.

The JZGTE motors certainly are impressive. Not just for their exhaust note either. Any engine that can make a reliable 315+rwkw using stock internals & cams gets my vote.

I do believe the turbos off your car are stock, but I'll drop in for a look anyway. If the stockies are sitting on the bench I'm guessing their replacement is soon to go on?

Joel,

I'd thought about O-ringing, but I don't think I'd have bothered to go to that extent.

It's good to hear the Nissan HG is up to the task.

[Freebaggin]

Thanks Martin and all for the comments and clarification (didn't see all the edited ones...), it has certainly generated more valuable technical discussion regarding engine tuning and the like than I have seen in a very long time.

However I'll refrane from such rash comments in future, and appologise for and retract from my now edited accusations. I believe you and keep up the scientific methodoly.

Martin I think you are maybe trying to be funny and/or provide contructive comments on these threads but it comes across as arrogance at times and it turns people off, and unfortunately people like me react aggressively when others are like that on the forums.

Maybe think before you write, many dudes have aggonised over the performance decisions they have made and paid for, to then be told in a forum by a reckognised tuner it's rubbish is a bit rich I think. Excellent contributions in the latter part of this thread however, good stuff.

By the way, I saw you on Saturday at the Gorge Rd stage of the Classic Adelaide, was gonna say G'Day but I thought you and the other big lads with you might have chucked me in the the river!

:argue:

[Martin Donnon]

Originally posted by Freebaggin

Martin I think you are maybe trying to be funny and/or provide contructive comments on these threads but it comes across as arrogance at times and it turns people off, and unfortunately people like me react aggressively when others are like that on the forums.  Maybe think before you write, many dudes have aggonised over the performance decisions they have made and paid for, to then be told in a forum by a reckognised tuner it's rubbish is a bit rich I think.  

The reason I do this, and its very 'agonised' over by myself, is that every single thing I do is public forum. Every modification I make, even the ones that go wrong, and I document them...in a public forum, that being a magazine. So, when I hear that poor decisions have been made, when I put my blood sweat and tears into helping you decide, then of course it comes across as arrogance. Its like, 'I told you so'.

Like the guy that came to me the other day with an R33 GTS, front mount Trust (smaller style) cooler ($1100), FC ($1200 s/h), stock meter, Apex second hand exhaust ($650), Z32 fuel pump ($250 s/h) and a set of straight fit second hand 600cc injectors ($700). He wrapped it all up with a bolt on HKS 2535 ($1600 s/h) and made 274 rwkw @ 1.3 bar. For well under $6K including my tuning he over doubled his stock power. Now thats smart.

Better to tell you its rubbish than keep encouraging you down the wrong path. Think about it.

[Clint32]

Martin would you mind giving your opinion on my setup I am currently planning/building for my 32.

HKS T04e, recod with new comp wheel .6A/R exhaust and comp housing

Turbosmart external gate

PWR 600 x 300 x 73 cooler

3.5''exhaust

044 pump with GTR injectors

New inlet manifold (due to my ability to make myself)

Run by Halltech probably

Hopeing for about 230-240 @ the wheels, will it work

[Freebaggin]

Yep, forgot to put that bit in, constructive and fair criticism and recommendations is what we all like to see, I didn't mean not do it at all, that's what forums are all about.