Dry Sump Set Ups

[retrotec]

I'm curious into whats involved in a dry sump set up.

I don't know enough about them to weigh up if it's worth doing.

I'm slowly building up a 26/30 thats estimated at 600hp going into a 240Z that will see some weekend street and track driving.

How do they work?

What does it mean by 4 and 5 stage pumps?

Can a normal RB sump be modded to suit a dry sump?.

What price range would I be looking at for a simple setup?

Does anyone have pics and experiences using dry sumps?

Thats all the questions I can think of atm.

Edited August 31, 2005 by retrotec

[Fitzpatrick Speed Works]

If you cant do any of the work yourself it will cost you around 6g. If you can make everything yourself and I mean everything brackets, custom aluminium machining filter setups etc it will still set you back around 2.5g with new parts. THere is alot of work involved to do it correctly, and not for someone to take on that hasnt had experience with oiling systems before.

4 stage menas there is for drive cogs inside the pump. 3 for scavenge and 1 for oil pressure, 5 means there are 4 scavenge and 6 is 5 scavenge etc. They work as a vacuum pump that draws oil out of the engine under vacuum into the pump then the oil is pumped back out under pressure to an oil reserve(this is the scavenge). the oil enters the reserve at the top and fills and pressurizes the oil in the tank and has an oil supply line (fromt the bottom of the tank) back to the pump on the pressure in side ( the first stage ie. pressure). this oil is re pressured through the pump and goes onto your engine. A normal sump can be modded to suit dry sump. I have pics of them setup on v8s and experience but I havent done my rb series yet and that is on serious back burner, not a priority, so sorry no pics.

[Sydneykid]

This is a Peterson 5 Stage dry sump system as used on a V8SuperCar

As you can see it has 4 scavenge stages and 1 pressure stage.

This is the tank design we use, it holds 8.5 litres plus about 2.5 litres in the lines, pipework, cooler and filter.

If you shop around there are plenty of used dry sump systems available. For a GTR you would be looking at a 4 stage system (scavenge, 2 sump, 1 cylinder head and 1 pressure). I bought one recently for just under $2K complete, pump, belt pulleys, fittings, lines, tank and breather. That $2K is about what an aftermarket RB26 pump and adaptor ring would have cost. I used the standard aircon bracket to mount the pump to the block. Bit of fabrication but not much.

As well as perfect lubrication we picked up around 12 bhp from removing the oily mist from the crankcase (stops the crank hitting it on rotation) and around 8 bhp from running a partial vacuum. Also the cam covers no longer fill up with oil, which lowers the CoG, the tank is mounted in the boot with the filter and the cooler under in the airflow. This moves around 15kgs from the front of the car to the rear for improved weight distribution.

Hope that was of some help

cheers

Edited September 1, 2005 by Sydneykid

[Drifterdan]

You cant buy them as a kit, can you.. Would be good if you could! hint, Hint...

[Scooby]

SK have you got any pics of the installation so we can see what's involved. Where can you buy these things second hand and where can you get them checked out? Are they suitable for street driving?

[browny]

SK, is $2k really representative of the true cost of setting something like this up?

Does it include the cost of modifying the sump? What would installation and fabrication cost if you weren't able to do it yourself?

IMO dry sumping is right up at the pointy end of the hardcore scale (ie serious race cars).

Where can you buy these things second hand and where can you get them checked out?

I've heard of a few people buying ex race car stuff from the US, can't point you to an exact place tho.

[IMACUL8]

Sorry for the question - but im assuming you would require alot more oil for this setup?

[Oosh]

Sorry for the question - but im assuming you would require alot more oil for this setup?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't apologise, read, esp. SK's post you might learn summin.

This is the tank design we use, it holds 8.5 litres plus about 2.5 litres in the lines, pipework, cooler and filter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[retrotec]

Having twice as much oil would mean it takes longer for the engine/oil to warm up?

SK, The diagram u posted up is quite clear to undertsand. What does scavenging in do going/coming from the sump?.

Edited September 2, 2005 by retrotec

[DoughBoy]

No, because alot of the oil cans have heaters built in to them, to allow instant warm-up.

Although I can recall SK boasting he can do a dry sump for $500, $2K is getting more realistic.... but $4K is a more likely figure.

Two pics showing some of the pre-heaters available. There are the electric blankets going around the outside of the can, as well as a big probe that sticks up through the bottom to about halfway up the can.

[Roy]

Just buy a TVR Speed 12. Try to start the car and all you hear is the heaters, pumps etc doing their things for 90 seconds before the thing will actually kick over that 800hp V12

[Fitzpatrick Speed Works]

I would never do one as a kit for a customer to fit themselves, there are to many variables when dealing with inexperienced people on important things like oiling systems. If you where to do a kit there is no way you could it for less than around $4 with all the brackets, sump mods, lines fittings, filter setup etc. Add to this there are a few approaches to doing it on a rb series, with a few of them not being very good....

Buying second hand is risky but it can be done, try ebay, the thing is they still go for pretty good money, plus shipping to Oz is around $120 on the last dry sump pump I got sent, and if you get it here and its no good you have to send it back to the states for service around $200-300 plus shipping both ways. It adds up!!!!!

I think when SK said 2k he meant parts no labour or fabrications. The sump mods alone are worth around $500 if you take it to a metal worker more from performance shops.

Retro there is no scavenge from the sump to the pump, there is pressure in and this is basically your oil supply line from the tank. IF people want to learn a little more general info about oiling systems go to moroso.com or petersonfluidsystems.com

[Fitzpatrick Speed Works]

heres a pic of my pump I have for my rb. It is 4 stage with rear drive so I can run my power steering or a mechanical fuel pump.

[T04GTR]

excellent. i was going to atempt to do thes conversion but i wanted to retain my a/c.

if there is an engine that needs a drysump it a rb26.

instead im making a 10 litre baffeld wet sump. $60 for the alloy and $200 for setting up the diff(gts4 donor sump)

but i would be VERY interested in pics etc about your setup. ive spent hours on hours searching the net for gtr specific setups. and got ZIP!!

but yes all the nascar ebay shops seem to be the go for all the seconhand stuff.etc

-14 lines and stuff and pumps and oil tanks.

also some good pics on how to set up the innards of a dry sump oil pan.

im looking forward to seeing the setup.

ps. i understand if you want to protect your har earned r and d.

[jas/slo32]

just run a jun oil pump im running one in my car making 1068rwhp

available from croydon or the trust oil pump available from autobarn

[4door_Sleeper]

just run a jun oil pump im running one in my car making 1068rwhp

available from croydon or the trust oil pump available from autobarn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didnt think the problem was a result of the pump, but rather oil starvation at the pickup during high lateral G's.

Excuse my ignorance but how much of this problem could be fixed (for occasional track use) by increasing oil capacity and adding some strategic windage (sp?) in the sump. Is there also a problem with oil gathering in the rocker covers and not making it down to the sump?, if so can additonal (external) lines be added between the sump and head.

PS - I realise in a dedicated track car the dry sump would be a better option, but many of us are not that serious and want a weekend - tack/street/drag/drift(?) car.

[Fitzpatrick Speed Works]

A wet sump done correctly will provide a 95% perfect result, however it cant make you horsepower, and sometimes packaging a good wet sump it a problem due to ground clearence. For a street car a dry sump is overkill. I have made three custom wet sumps, one was 11 litres, the other 2 are 7.5-8 litres, I also make a custom trap door system for the inside. To be honest I dont think many of us could dirve our cars hard enough to warrant anything more substantial than a good wet system, the advantage on the dry sump as I see it is the small horsepower gains.

Heres some pics

[Beer Baron]

pic not worky. could you post it again? very interested to see what it looks like.

Thanks.

[Fitzpatrick Speed Works]

A wet sump done correctly will provide a 95% perfect result, however it cant make you horsepower, and sometimes packaging a good wet sump it a problem due to ground clearence. For a street car a dry sump is overkill. I have made three custom wet sumps, one was 11 litres, the other 2 are 7.5-8 litres, I also make a custom trap door system for the inside. To be honest I dont think many of us could dirve our cars hard enough to warrant anything more substantial than a good wet system, the advantage on the dry sump as I see it is the small horsepower gains.

Heres some pics

[Fitzpatrick Speed Works]

A wet sump done correctly will provide a 95% perfect result, however it cant make you horsepower, and sometimes packaging a good wet sump it a problem due to ground clearence. For a street car a dry sump is overkill. I have made three custom wet sumps, one was 11 litres, the other 2 are 7.5-8 litres, I also make a custom trap door system for the inside. To be honest I dont think many of us could dirve our cars hard enough to warrant anything more substantial than a good wet system, the advantage on the dry sump as I see it is the small horsepower gains.

Heres some pics