Should I Consult The Police

[jrocket]

Hi all. I live out in the country area bout 2 hrs from melb and I find it hard to get to melb to go to different car events such as drags, drift, etc. I was talking to a mate the other day and we were thinking that we need something local that we can do. We are both into skid pan stuff at the moment and thought that we should try find somewhere that we can have fun safely and legally. My question is do you think that I should go and consult a police officer about me organising such an event where we could perhaps have police supervision or something. I was thinking of finding somewhere local that is off the roads and suitable such as dissused car parks, industrial areas. I would of course obtain permission to go there. I have thought about spectators n ppl getting hurt but it will only be a small group of my mates so not many spectators. It would be good if i could start up a event day with the local council here and i thought talking to the police about it might be a good start.

What do others think. Am I just crazy???

[MANWHORE]

IMO, don't contact the police. that'll just give them a bigger head. You'll make them think that they actually have a say in it.

If there is a place that the skidpan day can be organised, like the equivalent of eastern creek skidpan in sydney, then organise it.

[Duncan]

CAMS state office are the people to talk to because the owner of whatever you want to use will need you to have insurance, CAMS covers this by offering permits with insurance.

[blackrex]

You need to get a CAMS/AASA permit to hold an event like a motorkhana nowadays in Victoria. The new anti-hoon laws allow the police to treat any driving that is considered to be "hooning" that is visible from a public location to be used to fine drivers/confiscate cars, even if it is done on private land, unless you have a "official" permit. You may also want to talk to the local police anyhow, just to make sure that you do not get hassled by them.

[jrocket]

Hey thanks guys for the info. I will have to think about this in a bit more depth it seems. I will look into that permit thing. I wass thinking that if you did what eva u wanted on private property that all the police could do was stand at the side lines and watch.

[blackrex]

Because a lot of carparks, shopping centers and industrial estates are technically private land, the law was written to allow police to enter that land to enforce the anti hoon laws.

[jrocket]

Yeah thats a bit crap. So technically if i am doing doughnuts on my property they can come up and fine me and take my car.

[Revhead]

I was under the impression that if you can get into a place without encountering any obstacles (eg gate, fence) it's considered a thoroughfare. That's why police can walk through your front yard to get to your door, but need a warrant to go any further. As soon as they have to open a gate, step over a fence etc they need a warrant. This may or may not be the case, but this is my understanding.

How is this applicable? Well I'm wondering if this means that, by ensuring that the appropriate fencing and doors/gates are set up, the location is considered private. I'm not suggesting that you fence off a road somewhere and claim it as private property, but if you happened to have an area suitable for this kind of activity on your property, maybe ensuring that the only way in is to open a gate or climb a fence will be enough?? Insurance would still be an issue if you're intending on making an "event" out of it though. I'm unsure at what point it legally becomes an event.

I have not heard of the "visible from a public location" thing, if this is indeed true then it's crap. Goodbye paddock bashers, and learning how to drive on a farm, and goodbye any freedoms you might otherwise have on your OWN property. It's not my thing, but if I wanted to I should be allowed to do a burnout on my own property without worrying about being booked and the car taken away.

On a side note - good work on trying to find somewhere to have fun legally! Unfortunately it seems with hooning being the government's favourite "ooh look we're doing something" scapegoat right now, and with elections not too far away, that you'll run into a lot of resistance. In Qld (and no doubt other states too) it's at the point now where you're either told that your event is not allowed outright, or that it's allowed but has so many restrictions on it that it becomes completely pointless, you might as well be driving to the shops.

Best of luck!

[75coupe]

I would like to know how you go with this as people in regional areas need to have some sort of outlet for driving just the same as rich city folk.....

We cannot all afford cams spec cars and track days every other weekend....

A cheap legal outlet would be great...

[R31Nismoid]

Because a lot of carparks, shopping centers and industrial estates are technically private land, the law was written to allow police to enter that land to enforce the anti hoon laws.

No they are areas of public interest.

What you do in your own driveway is your own business as far as i understand it.

Its an offence to hoon, and as with ALL laws, police can enter a premisis if they believe the offender is inside... however the hoon laws i couldnt see applying to someone in thier backyard... and hence the officers would have to stand outside your front gate if you told them too.

Carparks whilst being private, are of public interest and use. Hence they can pin you in them quite freely.

On your own property if you built a concrete block you could go around in circles to your hearts content.

I would LOVE to see the Vic Police try to pin the tail on your donkey for doing something on your own property.

I would be one of the more interesting cases thats for sure.

[gdogzgtr]

From my training last week in these new laws I believe that you can in fact commit offences under the Hoon laws on private property. Very strange and interesting if you ask me.

[R31Nismoid]

Interesting indeed as logic would have it that in your own time on your own property with your own car... you can do what you want

Any thoughs in it Graeme?

Have you been instructed either way how you should approach it though?

Whilst the law might say "pin em" have you been told to treat it with care

The court case for it would be a mine-field to say the least.

[Taso84]

From my training last week in these new laws I believe that you can in fact commit offences under the Hoon laws on private property. Very strange and interesting if you ask me.

Haha, how to catch a hoon 101. No wonder crime is so bad in this city, police are to busy learning new ways of catching hoons.

That money could be so much more better spent on something like drug education. More lives and livelyhoods would certainly be saved

[gdogzgtr]

We have had no specific instructions on where/when to use the new laws. I don't know if was an oversight not specifying where offences take place such as Highway or that it has been made that way on purpose. IMO the new laws are more of a scare tactic that won't be used all that often but gained lots of media attention and discussions on forums like ours. It's good for repeat offenders drivers driving whilst diqualified for example. Also if your stupid enough to get caught 45km/h over the limit you deserve to lose your car for some period of time. It's not deigned to seize cars off people taking off at lights quickly to speed limit or people that accidently lose traction on wet roads. As long as it stops/deterrs even a small percentage of people "hooning" on our roads then the laws are a sucess if you ask me.

[R31Nismoid]

I dont think they should be portrayed then that is you take-off quickly... you'll loose the car

As thats certainly how it was written when it was all coming into play.

Its like big bully tactics really.

One side you have car makers trying to get every poofteenth of power then can, but the law (who use the same cars) telling you there isnt much point.

Surely then this is almost like a re-active law... and i certainly see it that way rather than getting pro-active from the outset.

Pro-active being more opporunities and actual support from the Vic Pol rather than a harsh clamp down which will only drive things further underground than they are already.

Im sure all the big wigs have been over it, its amazing they couldnt fix the problem and had to employ laws to fix the problems that they themselves are partly to blame for

[GTRgeoff]

Isn't it amazing in a country that worships the Great Race at Bathurst, hot cars in all forms and mourns the passing of a legend like Brocky that we have to pass laws like this? Seems to be a huge gulf between Australians and the people who choose the life of representing and hanging onto their positions representing Australians.

Seems you can't go 5 blocks without falling over a park or open area for playing sport, one of the greatest sources for injuries and operating costs in the community (and especially Defence where I spent plenty of time consulting the safety management database looking at injury rates and causes).

The real cost to the communities of sports is immense but no laws and limits are being passed on that (and god help me, more people die falling off ladders in Oz than from motoring accidents every year), but woe betide someone proposing that we have motoring skills areas in industrial areas. All it would take is a number of armco surrounded areas of bitumen no larger than 100m x 200m and drivers could play, practice and improve to their hearts content without endangering the broader community, or impacting upon their quiet enjoyment. No grass to water or cut and legislation could absolve the state of responsibility if stupid behaviour led to injuries. Regular visits by the boys and girls in blue to talk and involve themselves with that part of community, maybe even the odd demo too.

It's just a concept that can teach "hoons" that motorsport is ok in the appropriate venue, and also provide a safe place for learners to practice parking and a little skid control. Zero tolerance never works, especially in a community where the object of control is a thing of passion and enjoyment.

I'll be looking to move into politics in Qld once there in order to progress this kind of initiative to move away from zero tolerance and back to education and attitudes.

Would love to discuss it with you sometime over a beer Graeme if you can see any merit (or problems) in it.

[khezz]

I agree entirely. I live in perth WA. I have to say that for now we are lucky as Police seem somewhat relaxed about the car scene. But when it comes to zero tolerance, it never works. I used to live in Russia which was built on xero tolerance mentality for decades. We are only now learning that zero tolerance from the law is met by zero tolerance and respect from the public. Why cant you have a system where if you get a speeding fine, you can get those points back by doing advanced driver training coarses. Yes repeat offenders should get harsher treatment and drunk and drugged driving has no excuse. Also if I get a $150 fine, It bothers me but I will still be able to pay my bills. That same $150 fine for my little brother is a weeks rent. My boss is on $300 000 a year he will most likely not know if some one is taking $150 from his wallet. Doesn't seem fair does it.

[NickR33]

the scary thing is once new legislation like this is passed it is VERY RARELY rolled back... even once the threat has subsided the laws will remain in place to be abused and used out of context...

...its a classic knee jerk reaction... sh!t we need to do something... I know we will just sit here and write laws and make it look like we are working on the problem when all were really trying to do is avoid putting up money for better education... governments only ever think of the short term or more accurately whenever the next election is

[someonestolecc]

The other thing to consider is that Police in this case are more of an afterthought.

Cams/local councils etc probably influence their Policing practices, so in this case I would suggest going to "higher up". Then once you have the ground rules involving them as a courtesy and to provide input.

[GTRgeoff]

I saw the situation in Canberra when the 1/8 mile drag strip closed. While I had little to do with the night time car communities and their gatherings I was subject to the fallout, being a hot car and import owner.

The locals had nowhere to go and nothing to do other than gather at servos and in Braddon. As these things go, illegal drags occured, idiots would leave burning rubber and sometimes a soapy mixture was laid down (I was unlucky enough to drive through it one night after dinner. The crowds became huge it was so popular. I was one other night pulled up in Braddon after dinner with several high profile puclic servants, some of whom I was driving in the Soarer, some of us with very high clearances and significant responsibility so misbehaviour is not our thing. Until the officers were appraised of our respective positions we were treated like scum. The local response to these illegal gatherings was "Zero Tolerance" but nothing was being done to solve the lack of a location for these kids to burn off their motoring urges.

Skate parks are popping up everywhere, footy fields are all over the place so why not a motor park? Just a flat piece of tarmac or concrete with armco around it and clearly signposted rules of usage. So much to gain, very little to lose.

It would also be able to take some money from clubs as a location for tarmac motorkhanas.

I'll take this to a new thread to continue my political agitation so go here http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...p;#entry2493644