Jump to content
SAU Community

Recommended Posts

in factory form that is. i'd say that once they are finished with it it will do the job. braking wise it might even out brake the gtr (depending on what tyres they have on it)

the best thing i like about this is that they are supplying their own gtr to put around the track, so it will be interesting to see how it's time compares to the nissan time which no-one else seems to be able to replicate.

it would be funny if it was found out that some smart-arse nissan engineers had played around with the gtr to make it go faster without telling any of their bosses.

true, but-

a) the nissan test driver, old mate suzuki, is like god behind the wheel. there would be many professional drivers who couldnt match his skill, hence the reason the time around the ring is questioned.

b) a heavily modified evo could crack the gtr's time, so sure, a heavily modified camaro could probably do it too. you have to understand tho, that the gtr was in stock standard trim. right off the showroom floor.

so what does that prove? that with thousands of dollars worth of tuning, r&d, aftermarket parts, and all other costs involved it can beat a stock standard car around the ring? kinda takes some of the sine off it, doesnt it.

So modded Camaro vs Stock R35 GTR...

What if Nissan decides to put up a modified R35 GTR vs Stock / Modded Camaro?

:P

  • Replies 42
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

So modded Camaro vs Stock R35 GTR...

What if Nissan decides to put up a modified R35 GTR vs Stock / Modded Camaro?

:P

i have not driven either car, but from what i have seen and read, a stock 35 gtr will perform better in every way than a stock camaro.

On the other hand lag, as in how many rpm is need before the turbo makes boost wouldn't be affected by the turbo's location.

Cheers

Gary

how do u come up with that answer?? i was lead to believe that exhaust gases lose volume and velocity as they travel down the exhaust. shouldnt that therefore mean it would have a later spool time with an extra 2-3m of pipe as well as a cat between the turbo and exhaust port??

a) the nissan test driver, old mate suzuki, is like god behind the wheel. there would be many professional drivers who couldnt match his skill, hence the reason the time around the ring is questioned.

Yeah I noticed that when Porsche did their own tests in the R35, they got an engineer and not their chief test driver Walter Rohrl. Their announced 997 times were put down by Rohrl, which were faster than an R35 driven by a guy who's primary job is controlling a slide rule.

That's like saying that Motor Magazine is lying about lap times set in my car because I can't match Neal Bates' posted time, even though my car has mods.

Careful picking on the Yanks SK!

I would like to drive an STS equipped car some time just to see how it feels.

I do understand SK's point and I'm sure the turbo sizing is very important along with the total volume of the turbo system.

There are several things items that can reduce lag.... Cams, throttle body position, engine size, engine tuning, etc.

The STS is an add on turbo system. Most of the kits they sell go on V8's that have lot's of torque, so getting off the line without boost is not a problem.

How do you compare a Camaro to a GTR when the GTR costs over $100K more? (Plus the Camaro is way better looking!) (Not sure what the AU conversion cost is...)

Check out - www.camaroaustralia.com.au

Careful picking on the Yanks SK!

I would like to drive an STS equipped car some time just to see how it feels.

I do understand SK's point and I'm sure the turbo sizing is very important along with the total volume of the turbo system.

There are several things items that can reduce lag.... Cams, throttle body position, engine size, engine tuning, etc.

The STS is an add on turbo system. Most of the kits they sell go on V8's that have lot's of torque, so getting off the line without boost is not a problem.

How do you compare a Camaro to a GTR when the GTR costs over $100K more? (Plus the Camaro is way better looking!) (Not sure what the AU conversion cost is...)

Check out - www.camaroaustralia.com.au

and i would guess that they use the stock NA compression as well, so off boost they still have plenty of poke.

also, as far as the intake length goes, if you look at how long the intake length on a rb25 with FMIC is, it isn't exactly short either. so if they don't use an intercooler, or just a water to air one, they aren't going to be that much longer. yes it will be longer, but i don't think it would be much longer than double (if it was even that much). yes the time it takes for the exhaust gas to spool the turbo up is much longer, but i think that is where the housing size of the turbo plays it's part. also on a race track i don't think the repsonse is so much of an issue because if you are putting out decent power you are going to feed the power on out of a corner, not just stomp on the gas straight after hard braking. and people don't seem to be too concerned about having lower repsonse when they fit big turbos with big exhaust housings to their cars.

The only way to fairly compare two cars around the Nurburgring is to have one driver test both. Even then there are a ton of variables affecting it, but it's atleast closer for comparison than using two different people of different qualification. I daresay, unless the driver being used in this test is more used to driving Camaros and Camaro style setups (which he/she probably is), then this will be a closer comparison than simply waging this Camaro's time against Nissan's official time.

And really...I'm not saying in any way that Nissan engineers cheated...but there's nothing to say they couldn't have. The engineers were the ones who designed the car. I can assure you no Nurburgring official pulled apart the engine/drivetrain/suspension so they could have the opportunity to say "hey wait a minute that isn't stock!". Stretching the truth for marketing purposes...it's been done plenty of times before...it's not unheard of. Again, I am in no way saying Nissan or Porsche or anyone did this, but they are all certainly capable of it.

As for the STS setup, I don't think it would be that unresponsive or laggy. People wouldn't do them if they were all that bad. It would no doubt differ from traditional setups, but it would do this with both advantages and disadvantages. As far as response and lag goes though, it really doesn't take long for air/gas to travel down piping...just look at some of your intercooler setups...they are still responsive despite the fact you have bends and a big core sitting there to trap air, which probably make up the 4 metres of intake piping needed for the STS setup anyway. Start up a car and see how long it takes for gas to start coming out of the exhaust. But regardless, not all gas would escape out the wastegate when it opens. The piping would still contain atmo gases (both leftover and new gases [from the engine which hasn't stalled just because you're off boost or changed gear]) which only need to be pressurised to start spooling the turbo again - not the whole pipe filled with gas again.

Great comments Birds!

So like in golf... or other sports.. how much time handicap do you give a car that is $100k cheaper (Camaro) at the Nurburgring ring?

Edited by rapidroy
The only way to fairly compare two cars around the Nurburgring is to have one driver test both. Even then there are a ton of variables affecting it, but it's atleast closer for comparison than using two different people of different qualification. I daresay, unless the driver being used in this test is more used to driving Camaros and Camaro style setups (which he/she probably is), then this will be a closer comparison than simply waging this Camaro's time against Nissan's official time.

And really...I'm not saying in any way that Nissan engineers cheated...but there's nothing to say they couldn't have. The engineers were the ones who designed the car. I can assure you no Nurburgring official pulled apart the engine/drivetrain/suspension so they could have the opportunity to say "hey wait a minute that isn't stock!". Stretching the truth for marketing purposes...it's been done plenty of times before...it's not unheard of. Again, I am in no way saying Nissan or Porsche or anyone did this, but they are all certainly capable of it.

As for the STS setup, I don't think it would be that unresponsive or laggy. People wouldn't do them if they were all that bad. It would no doubt differ from traditional setups, but it would do this with both advantages and disadvantages. As far as response and lag goes though, it really doesn't take long for air/gas to travel down piping...just look at some of your intercooler setups...they are still responsive despite the fact you have bends and a big core sitting there to trap air, which probably make up the 4 metres of intake piping needed for the STS setup anyway. Start up a car and see how long it takes for gas to start coming out of the exhaust. But regardless, not all gas would escape out the wastegate when it opens. The piping would still contain atmo gases (both leftover and new gases [from the engine which hasn't stalled just because you're off boost or changed gear]) which only need to be pressurised to start spooling the turbo again - not the whole pipe filled with gas again.

at least with when porsche put the nissan round the ring you know it was going to be 100% stock. and as i said, we have no way of know if some little smart arse engineer plugged his little laptop into the gtr just before it went round and bumped up the boost a little bit or added in a touch more timing or anything like that. not saying it happened, but can anyone prove 100% that it didn't?

and what do you mean about gases escaping when the wastegate is opened? the wastegate shuts when you lift off the throttle.

as for response/lag on gearchanges, it wouldn't be any different to on a normal turbo setup. the throttle is only shut for a very short amount of time, so the turbo doesn't slow down very much. the only time there would be any difference in repsonse would be after braking or cruising along at light throttle (off boost).

Great comments Birds!

So like in golf... or other sports.. how much time handicap do you give a car that is $100k cheaper (Camaro) at the Nurburgring ring?

Just hoping you can clear something up for me Roy.

You keep saying that the GTR is $100k USD dearer than the Camaro... yet the GTR's RRP in the US is $72k for the Premium. Have I missed something?

... unless Americas economy is so bad that they have to pay customers 28k to take a Camaro off their hands :thumbsup:

It should for $100K more....

i would imagine a 32gtr would be quite a match for a camaro.. and a 32gtr is 40,000 cheaper, and is 17 years older.

lets not get too side tracked tho. the thread is a heavily tuned and modified camaro taking on a stock standard r35 gtr. the americans have undertaken this challenge, the goal being to beat the 35 around the ring. the origional price of said vehicles is not a factor in the channelge set.

at least with when porsche put the nissan round the ring you know it was going to be 100% stock. and as i said, we have no way of know if some little smart arse engineer plugged his little laptop into the gtr just before it went round and bumped up the boost a little bit or added in a touch more timing or anything like that. not saying it happened, but can anyone prove 100% that it didn't?

and what do you mean about gases escaping when the wastegate is opened? the wastegate shuts when you lift off the throttle.

as for response/lag on gearchanges, it wouldn't be any different to on a normal turbo setup. the throttle is only shut for a very short amount of time, so the turbo doesn't slow down very much. the only time there would be any difference in repsonse would be after braking or cruising along at light throttle (off boost).

Yep, that's what I'm saying...we can't be 100% sure of anything...for all we know Porsche could have taken it a little easy driving the thing. We can't compare them honestly with no bias unless we compare the cars for ourselves.

Sorry, I was saying (or meant to say) that when the wastegate is open it's only letting out enough exhaust gas to control boost...when it shuts again the remaining atmospheric pressure gases stay in the piping because there's no pressure to push them past the turbine. My bad :(

So like in golf... or other sports.. how much time handicap do you give a car that is $100k cheaper (Camaro) at the Nurburgring ring?

Well I'm sure the GTR doesn't get any time handicap over the 911 turbo even though the GTR is about $200k cheaper.

Maybe someone should spend the $200k modding a GTR to race a stocko 911 then? That would be a close race yeah?

This is why car comparisons are stupid beyond personal preference...price is just one of hundreds of variables that differ between vehicles...

if these guys in texas or wherever the hell they reside in america get credit for actually beating the GTR and the whole "tuned up" camaro thing gets put aside for there "victory" that would piss me off wicked ways

its like a motor magazine testing a relatively built R32-R34 GTR against a off the shelf R35 and saying the R32-R34 is the better pick?!?

lag = physical time it takes for a turbo to spool when its in its operating rpm band, what you guys are referring to is actually boost threshold (what rpm the turbo spools at)

i remember reading about the sts kit ages ago, the designer/engineer or some shit said that becuase there was the same mass in exhaust gas, it could spool a turbo all the same, just with a smaller rear to compensate for the lower volume (due to heat loss), or something along those lines anyway.

I've got a soft spot for both cars, i say good luck to them. They've set their sights high and chosen to pursue an interesting setup. A turbo V6 from America? i would have expected them to go straight for the big block V8 or something similar.

Sure, it won't prove it's a better car because at the end of the day you are comparing a stock car to one that's been modified but still, they've obviously recognised the brilliance of the GTR and want to have a crack at it. Good on them!

Edited by r33skylinegtst

The nurburgring is irrelevant anyway, unless you send two cars off simultaneously you can't really use their times as an accurate comparison anyway. The track is so big that while one part of the track is bone dry the other side can be wet, track temperature from corner to corner changes dramatically, and all the other variables than can be discounted on a 5km circuit that only covers a small area come into effect on a 22km circuit that covers such a large area.

Perhaps nissan just tested it on a "perfect" day, or porsche didn't try as hard, or they detuned their GTR. They're hardly going to issue a press release and say "Yes, it's true. The Nissan GTR is significantly faster around OUR test track than our flagship model, and at a significantly cheaper price too." they'll be doing everything they can to discredit the time, it just makes business sense.

at least with when porsche put the nissan round the ring you know it was going to be 100% stock. and as i said, we have no way of know if some little smart arse engineer plugged his little laptop into the gtr just before it went round and bumped up the boost a little bit or added in a touch more timing or anything like that. not saying it happened, but can anyone prove 100% that it didn't?

It also wouldn't be hard for Porsche to get one of those aftermarket ECU tuning tools to drop the boost or pull out some timing, let alone something like inserting restrictors into the intake or any other multitude of invisible mods (not that anyone saw the car Porsche used as they didn't publish a video).

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



  • Similar Content

  • Latest Posts

    • I came here to note that is a zener diode too base on the info there. Based on that, I'd also be suspicious that replacing it, and it's likely to do the same. A lot of use cases will see it used as either voltage protection, or to create a cheap but relatively stable fixed voltage supply. That would mean it has seen more voltage than it should, and has gone into voltage melt down. If there is something else in the circuit dumping out higher than it should voltages, that needs to be found too. It's quite likely they're trying to use the Zener to limit the voltage that is hitting through to the transistor beside it, so what ever goes to the zener is likely a signal, and they're using the transistor in that circuit to amplify it. Especially as it seems they've also got a capacitor across the zener. Looks like there is meant to be something "noisy" to that zener, and what ever it was, had a melt down. Looking at that picture, it also looks like there's some solder joints that really need redoing, and it might be worth having the whole board properly inspected.  Unfortunately, without being able to stick a multimeter on it, and start tracing it all out, I'm pretty much at a loss now to help. I don't even believe I have a climate control board from an R33 around here to pull apart and see if any of the circuit appears similar to give some ideas.
    • Nah - but you won't find anything on dismantling the seats in any such thing anyway.
    • Could be. Could also be that they sit around broken more. To be fair, you almost never see one driving around. I see more R chassis GTRs than the Renault ones.
    • Yeah. Nah. This is why I said My bold for my double emphasis. We're not talking about cars tuned to the edge of det here. We're talking about normal cars. Flame propagation speed and the amount of energy required to ignite the fuel are not significant factors when running at 1500-4000 rpm, and medium to light loads, like nearly every car on the road (except twin cab utes which are driven at 6k and 100% load all the time). There is no shortage of ignition energy available in any petrol engine. If there was, we'd all be in deep shit. The calorific value, on a volume basis, is significantly different, between 98 and 91, and that turns up immediately in consumption numbers. You can see the signal easily if you control for the other variables well enough, and/or collect enough stats. As to not seeing any benefit - we had a couple of EF and EL Falcons in the company fleet back in the late 90s and early 2000s. The EEC IV ECU in those things was particularly good at adding in timing as soon as knock headroom improved, which typically came from putting in some 95 or 98. The responsiveness and power improved noticeably, and the fuel consumption dropped considerably, just from going to 95. Less delta from there to 98 - almost not noticeable, compared to the big differences seen between 91 and 95. Way back in the day, when supermarkets first started selling fuel from their own stations, I did thousands of km in FNQ in a small Toyota. I can't remember if it was a Starlet or an early Yaris. Anyway - the supermarket servos were bringing in cheap fuel from Indonesia, and the other servos were still using locally refined gear. The fuel consumption was typically at least 5%, often as much as 8% worse on the Indo shit, presumably because they had a lot more oxygenated component in the brew, and were probably barely meeting the octane spec. Around the same time or maybe a bit later (like 25 years ago), I could tell the difference between Shell 98 and BP 98, and typically preferred to only use Shell then because the Skyline ran so much better on it. Years later I found the realtionship between them had swapped, as a consequence of yet more refinery closures. So I've only used BP 98 since. Although, I must say that I could not fault the odd tank of United 98 that I've run. It's probably the same stuff. It is also very important to remember that these findings are often dependent on region. With most of the refineries in Oz now dead, there's less variability in local stuff, and he majority of our fuels are not even refined here any more anyway. It probably depends more on which SE Asian refinery is currently cheapest to operate.
    • You don't have an R34 service manual for the body do you? Have found plenty for the engine and drivetrain but nothing else
×
×
  • Create New...