2011 F1 Thread

[hrd-hr30]

Team has no right to be issuing such orders in the first instance. 'Maintain the gap' is fooling nobody.

The day a race driver gives up on a sniff of a chance at a fair pass on his team-mate and settles for one place lower is the day he joins the ranks of other legendary hall-of-famers like Barrichello and Massa.

they don't have to "fool" anybody. the farcical team orders ban was ditched last year.

what do you think RBR will do in their contract negotiations in light of Mark disobeying their team orders? you can bet they won't be allowing that to happen again. and all for finishing exactly where they wanted him to anyway. pointless.

that's if they re-sign him at all. I reckon he's on real shakey ground. has not been a team player at all this year with his comments in post race interviews and now this.

[sh@un]

I'd say he's had enough of it and doesn't give a rats anymore.

But I can't see him landing a better whip anywhere else instead.

[hrd-hr30]

I think you're right on both counts.

[wolverine]

they don't have to "fool" anybody. the farcical team orders ban was ditched last year.

what do you think RBR will do in their contract negotiations in light of Mark disobeying their team orders? you can bet they won't be allowing that to happen again. and all for finishing exactly where they wanted him to anyway. pointless.

that's if they re-sign him at all. I reckon he's on real shakey ground. has not been a team player at all this year with his comments in post race interviews and now this.

It will make no difference to contract negotiations.

If he drove into the side of SV in a Schumacher/Hamilton-esque move then perhaps it would strain things a little. He didn't so they will all move on.

[Roy]

I prefer to see racing right to the line too, but don't think it was smart to break team orders while he's just started negotiating with them for next season, for a low percentage chance of getting 2nd place.

He was all despondant after the race too, so it seems he didn't even get any personal satisfaction from his act of defiance.

In all likelihood, RBR will ensure that this doesn't happen again next year if they re-sign him.

Might have been worth it if it was over a GP victory, but to stuff up your contract negotiations over a 2nd place which he couldn't get anyway... not very clever.

But thats my point. People have been saying Mark is a whipped dog this year. A number 2. He may have been in performance, but he isnt a contracted No.2. He is slowly coming to grips with the RB7 and good to see he wasnt there to follow Seb home. Points are points and if you have a shot you go for them...CLEANLY. Which it was clean racing

It shouldnt hurt team negotiations, they dont have team orders...so how can it hurt I dont think it was that big a deal. Horner, Webber and Seb were all a bit it happened. Lets move on...not like last years sh1t fight.

But, I am just happy as I am about to jump on a plane Webber at least seems to have about the same pace as Vettel now....in fact the No.2 had to be told not to pass the golden boy I love it. Long overdue this season, McLaren have been doing and hopefully RBR can be in on the action

[hrd-hr30]

horner only said they didn't have team orders when team orders were illegal. what else was he going to say?

of course it will impact their negotiations. Do they want their team orders ignored? No. So they put it in the contract for next year. Then he's an official No.2. Or one step closer to it anyway.

[warps]

the No.2 had to be told not to pass the golden boy

Or maybe he was told not to risk tangling with his team mate in a desperate effort to show he can match the young gun, thus losing a shedload of points for the championship leading team, and driver. I'm no vettel fan, but can see the sense in the orders. Vettel may be a cleaner racer this year, but there's no guarantee he won't do something stupid under pressure.

[dezz]

Everyone seems to be missing the fact that he did ignore the order, did try to pass, but didn't.

Maybe if the race was a few laps longer he might have got him, but it's not.

[Beer Baron]

yeah I got the impression during the race that the call of 'maintain the gap mark' probably came 2-3laps frmo the end when mark first started to hone in on vettel. and mark didn't acknowledge and just kept on at him. he had one good chance to make it stick but vettel came over on him pretty aggressively and mark (wisely) backed out of it which cost him any chance of making the pass. the real issue is why would vettel risk a crash just to hold up his much faster team mate? come on. he's a little cnt.

and yes red bull don't have team orders. well they don't when vettel is passing webber. they only come into effect when webber is trying to pass vettel. it's been that way for 3 years now. thankfully webber has some balls and if he reckons he can get past (despite vettel tending to prefer an accident to letting webber pass him) he'll try it.

but for me the biggest outrage was the shithouse one coverage? qualy was bad enough when they cut webbers pole laps short to cram in 30secs more adds in their 5min break. and the race was bloody terrible. I honestly can't see how they could fit any more ads in? maybe banners at top and bottom of screen flogging the brute V8 or gillete razors? forget spamming RBR with 'poor webber' and "horners a cnt" comments. start telling one what you think of their shithouse coverage.

[Beer Baron]

Heaps of ppl posting about how fcuked the team orders were how about some about there stupid coverage

Any idea what the email to onehd might be

See if they will bring that up on RPM on wed

agreed. I was thinking the same thing when rust was crapping on about all the complaints on fking twitter and facebook or whatever. I was wondering how many have complained about the appalling number of ad breaks in ones supposedly live coverage and if he'd have the balls to even mention it?

[Roy]

Or maybe he was told not to risk tangling with his team mate in a desperate effort to show he can match the young gun, thus losing a shedload of points for the championship leading team, and driver. I'm no vettel fan, but can see the sense in the orders. Vettel may be a cleaner racer this year, but there's no guarantee he won't do something stupid under pressure.

But thats not the same thing. If they were concerned about that and true to Mateschitz's claim...they should have been on the radio saying "Mark, Seb is in trouble on tyres. If you are going to have a go make it clean. " Likewise updating Vettel that "Mark is quicker and will be attacking. Defend your position but nothing desperate"

If that was the radio call I would be applauding them!

And the comment that he didnt get past anyway...not really the point. He tried and should have been allowed to on the say so of the team (I undersand team orders are legal this year, but Mateschitz's insists thats not what RBR are about...its HIS MONEY and he should be applauded.

I think if the other car had not been an RBR he would have got the job done. But respecting it was his team mate with only 2 laps to go...waited.

And Harry, dont see it affecting negotiations... http://www.yallaf1.com/2011/07/10/mateschitz-all-but-confirms-webber-for-2012/ .... If Mateschitz is true to his word, he was there and said this most likely before the race. Perhaps even after the race.

oh this is whaty he has said time and time again

But Austrian billionaire Mateschitz tells how there will never be team orders at RBR

"This is a sport and the best should win," he said.

"Power, politics, manipulation and so on should be kept as far away as possible."

"The game is 'come and get me, if you can', and not 'let me through because I'm better'," insisted Mateschitz. "Racing must remain racing."

And their points tallies aside, he is adamant that the events about to happen on the circuit will determine whether Webber or Vettel triumphs.

"They are different in personality, but equally fast," he said.

[ctjet]

somewhat unrelated, but the mp4-12c has apprently done quite well around the top gear track

depending in what spec they're talking about, it may have topped the board

at least tehy're topping something eh

[tweety bird]

interesting race

but i think the 'post race' stuff will be even more interesting.

[R31Nismoid]

but for me the biggest outrage was the shithouse one coverage? qualy was bad enough when they cut webbers pole laps short to cram in 30secs more adds in their 5min break. and the race was bloody terrible. I honestly can't see how they could fit any more ads in? maybe banners at top and bottom of screen flogging the brute V8 or gillete razors? forget spamming RBR with 'poor webber' and "horners a cnt" comments. start telling one what you think of their shithouse coverage.

+1

Worst timing for ad breaks.

Also the UK coverage of the last 3-4 laps was shit. The TV director couldnt make up which battle to follow, and as a result we missed the better parts of both

[dezz]

+1

Worst timing for ad breaks.

Also the UK coverage of the last 3-4 laps was shit. The TV director couldnt make up which battle to follow, and as a result we missed the better parts of both

Can't really hold that against anyone... Bit hard to simultaneously show 2 major battles.

One's coverage was woeful though. Closing stages of the race and they took another break after being back for no more than 6-7 laps

[hrd-hr30]

(I undersand team orders are legal this year, but Mateschitz's insists thats not what RBR are about...its HIS MONEY and he should be applauded.

I haven't seen them say that since last year, when team orders were illegal.

And Harry, dont see it affecting negotiations... http://www.yallaf1.com/2011/07/10/mateschitz-all-but-confirms-webber-for-2012/ .... If Mateschitz is true to his word, he was there and said this most likely before the race. Perhaps even after the race.

I can't see how it would not affect contract negotiations (in any workplace) when you clearly have a team member not interested in following legal team orders. Not neccesarily saying they won't re-sign Mark, but I bet there will be a clause in there about accepting that RBR has a right to make team orders and Mark has an obligation to comply...

in any event, it may come down to what Mark wants to do. Teams and drivers rarely tell you what they're actually planning before they sign anyway. he doesn't seem real happy at RBR. Last time he wasn't happy at Williams, he seriously considered retirement.

Edited July 11, 2011 by hrd-hr30

[NickR33]

yeah I got the impression during the race that the call of 'maintain the gap mark' probably came 2-3laps frmo the end when mark first started to hone in on vettel. and mark didn't acknowledge and just kept on at him. he had one good chance to make it stick but vettel came over on him pretty aggressively and mark (wisely) backed out of it which cost him any chance of making the pass. the real issue is why would vettel risk a crash just to hold up his much faster team mate? come on. he's a little cnt.

and yes red bull don't have team orders. well they don't when vettel is passing webber. they only come into effect when webber is trying to pass vettel. it's been that way for 3 years now. thankfully webber has some balls and if he reckons he can get past (despite vettel tending to prefer an accident to letting webber pass him) he'll try it.

^ this

Webber was clearly quicker and made a good move on Vettel... screw 'team orders' and all that garbage, let them go at it... some of the most entertaining F1 battles have been between teammates

soooo I watched F1 and was entertained, right to the end!... they should only run F1 races in places with a high chance of rain... or better yet, hose down the track before the race... with dishwashing liquid

[dezz]

^ this

Webber was clearly quicker and made a good move on Vettel...

Not a good enough move to get past as it turns out...

[Beer Baron]

soooo I watched F1 and was entertained, right to the end!... they should only run F1 races in places with a high chance of rain... or better yet, hose down the track before the race... with dishwashing liquid

you been speaking to bernie? that's his plan. have rain sprinklers at the circuit for those days it doesn't rain at least part of the time...

[Roy]

Harry, not from this season but makes the point, his philosophy has nothing to do whether team orders are legal or not....its how he views the sport....

2010 Brazilian Grand Prix, Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz articulated his philosophy of why his drivers would be allowed to race each other right to the end and the team would not intervene, “Let the two drivers race and what will be will be,” he said. “If Alonso wins we will have been unlucky. I predict a Hollywood ending. Worst case scenario we don’t become champion? We’ll do it next year...our philosophy stays the same because this is sport and it must remain sport. We don’t manipulate things like Ferrari do.”

Re my earlier point. You dont think it would have been wiser to say to Mark "Mark, Seb is in trouble on tyres. If you are going to have a go make it clean." Likewise updating Vettel that "Mark is quicker and will be attacking. Defend your position but nothing desperate"

If one of them over steps the line then a real reaming is in order. I can see how this goes... future quotes from Horner...

"In the first few laps you dont want team mates racing and taking each other out so we told Mark not to attack so early in the race as anything could have happened in the later laps"

"We told Mark to hold off on attacking as Seb had a problem with his KERS / Or was in tyre trouble so didnt want Seb to push any harder and result in a pit stop for tyres or a car problem"

"With 3 laps to go we did not want to throw away valuable points with a clash so told th drivers to hold position"

So when are they actually allowed to race? That all said, Mark has himself to blame, even allowing for having the slippery side of the track (rubbered in racing line in the wet is worse then dirty side in the wet) he should have gotten away better and been leading Vettel...not chasing