Buying A New Car? Read This First. (warranty)

[Calsonic14U]

Hello fellow SAU'ers.

I am a mechanic in a privately owned rent a car shop in western Sydney.

My boss recently purchased a 2012 Nissan Micra. Now the car is a rental yes, and our customers when re fueling always put E-10 unleaded in because of the obvious reason that it is cheaper.

Now lately ive had a really bad run of not just this car but a lot of my 4 cylinder hiace vans logging the engine fault light. When i scan with my computer it tells me every time that an O2 sensor is faulty. You can clear the code and will come back on within a few hours of driving.

Now most new cars these days on the inside of the fuel cap state that they are "E-10" Suitable. In this case the micra does not have this sticker inside the petrol flap. Doesnt stop our customers obviously. Truth is not all cars are E-10 suitable. Premature failure of the 02 sensors is very common yet when the government and petrol stations talk about it this problem is easily overlooked.

The problem is Nissan when contacted are not covering this type of problem under the new car warranty. I service all the cars as per book as a licensed workshop this does not void warrenty at all. Nissans reason for not covering warranty was the fact that E-10 could have been used and has caused the 02 sensor to fail.

The car runs poorly, cutting out, stalling and for a vehicle with only 20,000km on it you would expect even with E-10 the o2 sensor would last a lot longer than this. Considering the hiace vans with the lights comming on are at 100,000km plus before logging the code.

For the part alone is around $130 dollars trade and obviously i will fit it so no labour charge. But for an average Joe who goes to the dealership i would estimate they would charge around $400 to fix this problem. I know no one here would run E-10 in a skyline but this was more to inform you for family or friends who are looking at new cars maybe just to double check when buying to make sure that in the event of somethng like this happening you have warrenty. And that the car is definately E-10 suitable.

The petrol companies say E-10 is perfectly fine to run in Most cars. So please be careful next time you go fill up your little run about.

Regards,

The angry mechanic that no one ever listens to when i rant about how crap E-10 is.

Extra Info - http://www.fcai.com.au/environment/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol-

[niZmO_Man]

E10 is shit unless it's from Mobil

E10 makes my R31 sad (read: stall, I was out of petrol and had to push my car to Caltex ).

[Redline_GTR]

Hmm this is an eye opener.

While I do not fill up my car with E10 I know of a few who do (not Skyline owners).

Also I know of several people whose fault light / o2 sensor has played up and yes in these newer model cars.

I will be definitely passing this info on.

Thanks Luke!

[luke gtr]

So, you're angry Nissan aren't covering parts due to the wrong fuel being used?

Would you expect them to warrant a diesel pump of your customer filled it with unleaded?

The wrong fuel is the wrong fuel.

Don't listen to fuel manufacturers, they're trying to sell.

Listen to the engine manufacturer.

If they say don't use it, don't.

Or, take the risk and POSSIBLY pay in the end.

Regards, the angry mechanic who has to deal with customers who believe it's everyone's fault except theirs.

[luke gtr]

Oh, 1 more bit of info....

Have not needed to replace 1 micra O2 sensor yet.

Have been working for Nissan 2yrs.

[luke gtr]

I just realised how that may have come across.

I'm just trying to show the other side of the coin.

I wasn't trying to say it's necessarily your fault.

[Ben C34]

Does ethanol kill o2 sensors?

How does 10 percent cause a problem ?

[luke gtr]

Not that I've heard?

[Calsonic14U]

I just realised how that may have come across.

I'm just trying to show the other side of the coin.

I wasn't trying to say it's necessarily your fault.

No all good. Its just if the general public dont know about this possible cause then they will continue to possibly have problems. Im not angry at nissan i can understand their point of view (i worked at toyota for 2 and a half years). But the point im trying to make is just be careful. And yes ive had customers fill diesels with petrol in our rental commuter buses and have charged them for the repairs lol.

Does ethanol kill o2 sensors?

How does 10 percent cause a problem ?

If the cars ECU is programed to work out mixtures based on a 0% ethanol level it may get confused by the 10% ethanol reading and log a fault code as the mixture is outside the set parameters of the sensor. Also the most common fault code I get is that the O2 sensor has found a lean mixture and aventualy this constant lean mix causes the O2 sensor to fail.

Also I have herd from some tuners that if running E-Flex or E-85 (yes its a lot different) the o2 sensors currently on the market from bocsh and NGK still havent fully been developed to cope with E-10 to E85. Thus needing to have the sensor replaced almost every 6 months.

The leaner mixture is caused by the ethanol content causing the fuel to burn more efficiently and the stock ECU can not adjust injector pulse accordingly enough to feed the engine enough fuel to stop it leaning out. its not a dangerous level of leaning out and most cars will run normally without any drama, but enough to log an engine fault code.

[Ben C34]

Yeah, but does it damage the o2 sensor and if so how?

A fault code indicates an out of spec condition, eg too lean like you say. Running 10 percent ethanol would require a 3 or 4 percent richer mixture, well within the ecu capabilities, so I don't see how there's such a big problem. I don't doubt you have seen it. But I just winder if it really is the e10 doing it

So are you saying that a commodore that can run e85 will kill o2 sensors in 6 months? I find that hard to believe.

[RBrennan25]

Yeah, but does it damage the o2 sensor and if so how?

Also interested in this question. Because as you say, if ethanol is killing O2 sensors, then flex fuel cars will obviously struggle big time seeing the much higher ethanol content.

Is the fault in question to do with the O2 sensor failing because ethanol kills it, or because constantly running lean throws a code? Because in the second instance, surely running a flex fuel car, which is programmed to adjust how much fuel is injected according to ethanol content (with a flex fuel sensor) shouldn't have a problem.

Also definitely no mechanic but would love to find out more.

And I never use e10 in my daily (Camry)

[oweban]

Thanks Luke - good writeup.

I use E10 in my Lancer every now and then, but mainly stick with 95 - I've been told it was run on about 80% E10 before I bought it (so 105,000kms of 4-tanks-E10, 1-tank-95). I figure if it hasn't died by now from that, it should be okay to do so every now and then.

Having said that though, new cars deserve 95 (unless you buy a diesel ).

[Calsonic14U]

I think from what ive seen the different types of gasses created by the burning of E10 effects the sensor causing damage. Nearly all the sensors I pull out which are faulty are very white as if running super lean.

The engine code logged when I replace an o2 actually states that the sensor has a short or open circuit. Along with say bank 1 sensor 1 or whichever is causing the light.

In regards to a commadore running the E-85/98 from factory they would have a simillar set up to the E-Flex of an aftermarket set up. Also the ECU would be programed say like a HALTEK aftermarket unit would be to look and adjust for the varied levels of ethanol. In regards to this same mix destroying an o2 im not sure. They may have a sensor that is suited for this mix but i would dare say most average people would buy this model of car and rarely put E-85 in it. I cant prove or disprove this theory at all properly.

All i can say is in my experience so far in the last 5 years or so that E10 has become more available, customers with a running problem and engine check light on have been using E-10. Pretty much when i scan and see the code first question I ask is what fuel do you run 9 out of 10 would say E-10.

Best example was a bloke came in with a VZ senator which was a couple years old. He didnt understand why it ran like absolute shite. Until he told me it was running on E-10. It was logging engine codes for running lean ect. But at the time had not made a fault in the o2. But he hasnt been back with complaints since i told him to run at least 95 with no ethanol so could be correct.

I wont even run E10 in my wifes little starlet 96 model haha.

[Ben C34]

Weird. I have a mate with a vy ss he runs on e10 and it hammers. For a stock car... Gets driven extremely hard all the time and no dramas.

[Calsonic14U]

Yah each case can be different. These are just the experiences ive had over the years. good to hear of others and their experience with this fuel.

thanks for everyone and their input, keep it comming

[scotty nm35]

e10 is crap, but not due to the ethanol content.

Modern cars use wideband o2 sensors, depending how these are mounted the extra moisture in the ethanol can damage the heater element. Otherwise they should last many years.

[zebra]

I've had bad 98...to the point my race bike won't even start on it.

e10 is shit.

my 5L commodore hates it

[MrStabby]

Interesting. Does the Micra's manual mention anything about e10? I wonder if Nissan are meeting their legal responsibilities. Remember they will often turn down warrantee requests that they are legally obligated to provide, hoping you are ignorant of the law and accept their decision. You could even make that case that if during the purchase process you were not specifically informed that the car cannot run on e10 then you were sold the vehicle under false pretences, as it would be a perfectly reasonable expectation that the car can run on e10. The consumer law is strong, so its worth investigating.

I've been mostly using the United 95 octane e10 in the Stagea for about 20,000kms....

[fatz]

dont buy a micra

check

[Calsonic14U]

HAHA Fatz.

Ah have not read through the manual yet but I had to fill the car up yesterday after replacing the sensor. On the inside of the petrol flap it has a sticker that reads "Unleaded fuel only". So nothing about E10 as such but also doesnt say it wont run properly on E10. Bit quiet at work might have a read and see if it states exactly what fuel you are ment to run.