Mistakes were made, my R34 Story

[The Bogan]

I'm glad you, Lex and the car "eventually" made it home safe and sound

I've used the NRMA alot over the years, I always get the premium package, the small amount of money it costs to join has paid for itself over and over again, they have never actually made any money from me over the years with all of the tows I've had

It does look like a good time to inspect and remediate any of the questionable wiring from yore

I'm sorry I missed your initial PM and was unable to give support

[R3N3]

I run the FPG hat and it’s awesome. I only crimped mine (DT-P terminals) and I have had no issues. Note that I run my pump ( Walbro 460) direct from the PDM. My understanding is the DT-P style pin can handle 25A.

I find the deutsch style pins much nicer to crimp. Converting the fuel level sender to a dt plug was super simple.

Edited January 2, 2024 by R3N3

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

10 hours ago, Kinkstaah said:

The NRMA guy was messing with the ground wire for the pump and it was arcing/moving in the boot.

And as shown, it has been melting the bulkhead fitting and generally creating a pretty shitty connection with regards to grounding. 

I dare say the use of those ring terminals were the root cause of your issues. Looks like there wasn't sufficient crimping force applied on those crimps.

I generally rip off the plastic shit before crimping those (when I need to use them) then use a double wall heat shrink over the top.

Here's a good article about poorly crimped connectors causing fires, although the wiring was sufficient to handle the load 

https://www.edn.com/bad-crimp-bad-news/

 

[Duncan]

You totally should have posted up during the adventure, I'm not in Sydney anymore but I'm sure some help would have arrived.

I've also had problems recently with fuel hats/wiring/fusing for one of those 525 pumps, see my stagea thread for most recent chapter including some FPG instalments

But, like Dose said, I think it is critical to stay away from solder in any automotive environment. Its not the solder itself, its the heat affecting the wiring directly next to the solder site, it goes brittle and fails over time. And as you noted, passing wire through the fuel hat leads to wicking of fuel and damage over time.

What I don't get is, you are only running an LS. Surely some standard or slightly larger pump would be enough for the power it makes? If you want to stick with a high current pump, change to a modern FPG hat or similar (they have clearly been learning over time with their revised designs, I'd stay away from older ones).

[Kinkstaah]

I mostly expect that the revised designs (the current FPG hat is version 4) is probably quietly due to similar issues or potential worries like the ones I've run into.

I did look into other pumps - The walbro at 45psi is 'only' a 15amp draw. Does anyone know a more suitable pump that fits on a skyline hanger? I did have this thought too, but couldn't actually find anything that draws less. I do plan to stay N/A, but even on E85 we're talking ~350kw of power (in the future with aftermarket heads/intake) at 45psi fuel pressure.

It's not really crazy and being N/A means a single 460 is technically a bit overkill. But other people run these without problems so I'm confused.

The main draw of the FPG lid is pretty much due to the fact it comes as a plug-in-solution, with regards to the parts inside the tank, and from the tank lid to my very simple relay, which only wants a single power wire with 1x spade terminal, and a ground to the car chassis (and) battery.

(and the trigger wires for the relay I suppose which I need to redo)

I'd need more reading to determine exactly why solder is bad. It certainly wasn't the thing that failed for over a decade in fuel. I get that you don't 'need' it if your crimp is good enough, but my brain wants to think of it as 'wiring glue' lol.

[Kinkstaah]

Most calculators imply I need about a 300LPH pump (with a little more for safety).

However a DW300 (340LPH) 



~12 amps.

is that really going to make the difference?

[admS15]

Fark, what a debacle. True Greg style. Glad you, Lex and the 34 all made it back in 1 piece.

I've been running a dw300 in mine. Went that way to avoid the type of thing you've just experienced. Standard hat and plug. I can't remember exactly but I think I used slightly beefier wiring to the pump and crimped it on (pretty dodgy I know). Haven't had any issues other than melting a relay early on due to poor crimps on the connections to said relay. Redid them all using a proper pro grade crimper and no problem since. 

I think the dw or similar equivalent should do the job for you and greatly reduce another Greggin scenario.

[Kinkstaah]

I have since been googling madly and I do have a brand new lid.

However finding the actual fuel pump plug (on both sides) is proving to be a very tough google. The kits etc from Justjap have a flying lead from the DW300 to where you would ordinarily connect the tank side wires with the little soldering links they provide.

However the problem is finding the plug for the actual fuel pump lid (on both sides).
I could then connect that to my relay, once it's out of the lid, and just put a good ol rubber grommet(s) to seal the holes I've drilled in said new lid.

Given most fuel calcs imply that a DW300 is good for 550KW (crank) on E85 in a N/A 3 bar application, this is pretty overkilly.

Anyone got a spare stock fuel pump loom? This plug seems maybe findable.

This one however... less so.

[MBS206]

On the topic of soldering;

Soldering a joint is a lot like welding, and most people screw it up. Even auto elecs will stuff it up, and part of that is because they don't test your soldering ability like they do with welding.

People get confused as well, between heat, and temperature. People hear heat is an issue, and will run an adjustable soldering iron at a lower temperature. However, this ends up causing more heat, as heat transferred in, is a function of the amount of time you're applying the temperature difference for, and heat loss is a function time too, but your target you need to get solder to melt, is temperature based too. As copper is a good thermal conductor, it starts conducting heat along the cable. For some reason people find it "easier" to solder at the slightly lower temperatures too, so for less experienced solderers, they do this.

The above issue of too much heat, additionally cause other issues in solder, such as the solder reacting with other elements, and this causes its properties to change.

Also, if you don't have clean copper, and don't use flux, you can have issues.

If you don't clean up flux properly afterwards, you can have issues.

Generally, people also use way too much solder, and make a really big joint, this can create issues.

People don't strain relief when they run the cables away. Through vibrations this can cause solder cracking, especially if you haven't soldered properly as discussed above. Added to this, if the cable itself is able to move around, but the soldered joint isn't, this will cause the strands to keep snapping (in my experience, and knowledge, this is normally why the cables break, and people incorrectly blame it on "heat affected zone" more than necessary.

 

Add to this, everyone wants ROHS products, meaning lead free products, so the world has move to a lead free solder. Lead free solder needs to be performed at higher temperatures (around 100c more). The bigger the cable you get to, the harder a good solder joint becomes.

Lead based solder additionally is a much softer, more malleable solder than lead free, this means immediately in itself, it is less prone to cracking than lead free solder.

Those cracks, they also become what is known as a hot joint, and that's because they increase resistance. Hit joints if bad enough and enough current is being drawn, can ignite car fires, they can also cause some really hard to track down voltage fluctuations to the end product, especially in devices with varying, and large enough currents (large enough becomes a function of the resistance at the joint). The resistance can also vary based on movement. Hence when chasing weird gremlins, a valid test is to shake different parts of wiring to try to "simulate" driving at extremes.

 

Electrically speaking, a soldered joint is better than a crimped one.

However the ability for a monkey, with the correct crimps and crimper to make a decent join is quite high, and consistency will be quite high. Compare that to even your average auto electrician managing to get high quality solder joints, with high consistency.

Add on to that, it's much easier to visually see a specific crimp to be causing issues, versus a solder joint, it means diagnosing is much easier.

 

Durability wise, a crimp done properly, will mostly stay how it is (again, take into account you still need to give proper cable support, stress relief etc.) however, you can end up with a "dry solder joint" that will cause you problems, and many people hit these issues with aging electronics.

 

When using crimps, in most automotive plugs they automatically start to remove some of the flexing issues that can snap a cable, purely based on how the cable sits in, the fact some insulation should also be crimped to the crimp too etc.

 

However, using the wrong size cable/crimp, or the wrong crimpers can cause a cable to not be held tightly, or held too tightly and even break strands when the crimp is being made.

 

Whilst I can do a good solder joint myself, based on even my variation, and some of the cable sizes needed when doing my Skylines new loom, I have avoided solder nearly entirely and crimped all my cable joins, including when needing to T cables.

 

Planning the looms as best you can to avoid joins as much as possible is the best bet. Add to that, high quality crimps, and high quality crimpers, and high quality cable (and yep, there's plenty of shit cable you can buy!)

 

Hopefully that gives you some reasons why people say avoid solder.

 

And yes, some people will also say car manufacturers no longer solder joints etc etc, as evidence for why it is better. However,  one of the biggest reasons for that is actually cost (remember how we said lower skilled people can do crimps to a good quality consistently? Lower skills = lower pay, which is the main cost in making wiring looms...)

[MBS206]

The DT-P connectors use the TE size 12 contacts, these can handle 25Amp max, though can only take a 12gauge cable at most.

25amp, on 12gauge, you will want your cable run to max out around a metre, maybe a touch more.

That's also the cable being NOT in a bundle of other wires. Meaning, the cable can shed heat the easiest.

Regarding heat management of the cable inside the fuel tank, it is less of a concern here, however, this smaller cable will still add to the total length of cable voltage drop.

[GTSBoy]

I still make the argument that there is a place for solder flowed into a crimped connection to enhance both the mechanical connection and the electrical connection. Fill the gaps with something conductive and it has to be better at both, without any likely negative effects that I can foresee.

It's essentially the same process used for joining (mechanical suspension) cables in bridges and post-tensioned structures, and the like. Put loose cable strands into a constraining container (ie, the crimp connector) and fill with a solid, incompressible matrix that can't be pulled out through the opening. Only in this case the crimp is crushed first to make the intended and hopefully satisfactory connection and the solder is merely belt and braces.

This would have to particularly true when pushing the limits where a possible sub-optimal crimped connection could cause a major problem, and the application of a little solder on top could simply sidestep the whole issue.

29 minutes ago, MBS206 said:

Add to this, everyone wants ROHS products, meaning lead free products, so the world has move to a lead free solder.

Yeah, but who (apart from OEM industry) actually uses lead free solder? Every hobby electronics guy and electrical tech/maintenance guy I know uses 60/40. If they're at all worried about huffing fumes they use a fan.

[admS15]

I had a quick look on EFI solutions website, you'll probably find the plugs you're looking for there.

 

https://www.efisolutions.com.au/category_s/179.htm

 

 

[GTSBoy]

I'm not sure I can understand why the tank hats that are being discussed don't have a double ended female (or male, depending on your point of view) Deutsch connector integrally in the hat, and you just plug the mating connector in on both sides. Effectively a bulkhead fitting for electrons.

That way you can wire a new connector onto any new pump, and you can wire the appropriate connector on the car side, and you don't have to explicitly pass anything through the hat (and worry about the sealing), as that is all taken care of.

[MBS206]

30 minutes ago, GTSBoy said:

I still make the argument that there is a place for solder flowed into a crimped connection to enhance both the mechanical connection and the electrical connection. Fill the gaps with something conductive and it has to be better at both, without any likely negative effects that I can foresee.

It's essentially the same process used for joining (mechanical suspension) cables in bridges and post-tensioned structures, and the like. Put loose cable strands into a constraining container (ie, the crimp connector) and fill with a solid, incompressible matrix that can't be pulled out through the opening. Only in this case the crimp is crushed first to make the intended and hopefully satisfactory connection and the solder is merely belt and braces.

This would have to particularly true when pushing the limits where a possible sub-optimal crimped connection could cause a major problem, and the application of a little solder on top could simply sidestep the whole issue.

Yeah, but who (apart from OEM industry) actually uses lead free solder? Every hobby electronics guy and electrical tech/maintenance guy I know uses 60/40. If they're at all worried about huffing fumes they use a fan.

I don't touch the lead stuff in my work or home stuff.

I actually know a lot who don't, especially in electronics as most that I know, when running home/small office stuff for prototyping use SMD parts, and it's easier to for SMD using lead free, and typically sourcing it is easier too.

 

Last time at Jaycar too, they're now stocking more lead free solder than leaded(at my local anyway).

 

I do wholeheartedly agree, solder plus crimp makes the best join mechanically, and electrically, so long as solder is applied properly (as with a suspension bridge), at least the HAZ is much less issue in electronics than structural! Ha ha ha

Also, crimping correctly also applies too, but we covered that part

[Kinkstaah]

37 minutes ago, admS15 said:

I had a quick look on EFI solutions website, you'll probably find the plugs you're looking for there.

https://www.efisolutions.com.au/category_s/179.htm

 

There's probably a good chance of the top of tank to relay plug being here, but not the one on the underside of the stock lid.

There's a guy selling 2 fuel hats and pumps and stock wiring for $150 across melbourne, but I mean at this point I really only want the plug. IF I circumvent the issue by downgrading the pump and using less draw by doing that as well as buying a new DW300 pump instead of continuing to use the Walbro 460.

For the sake of 3 amps. Which by all normal, official means should be fine anyway with the 15 amp Walbro if I just do it 'correctly'.

[MBS206]

3 minutes ago, GTSBoy said:

I'm not sure I can understand why the tank hats that are being discussed don't have a double ended female (or male, depending on your point of view) Deutsch connector integrally in the hat, and you just plug the mating connector in on both sides. Effectively a bulkhead fitting for electrons.

That way you can wire a new connector onto any new pump, and you can wire the appropriate connector on the car side, and you don't have to explicitly pass anything through the hat (and worry about the sealing), as that is all taken care of.

Typically, cost to get the to seal.

You want them potted, which would mean getting a low pressure injection mould made.

It's expensive upfront, but reduces in price over time. That and the moment you need a new die as you have to revise something, more cost making a new die.

The last simple die we got made (December 2023...) was still over $4k. I'd then assume they don't have the volume to make it cost effective.

Alot of these guys also wouldn't know how to work out which plugs to properly get that can go through those processes of low pressure injection moulding to seal them, as well as be fuel resistant etc.

 

I personally like the ones that are a simple bolt protruding on each side, then it's easy to just use a ring terminal on each side, and you can use some thick cable if needed, or smaller cable if it's a smaller pump.

[Kinkstaah]

On 1/3/2024 at 2:56 PM, admS15 said:

I had a quick look on EFI solutions website, you'll probably find the plugs you're looking for there.

 

JESUS CHRIST

I was about to post up here if anyone had the plug for the R34/S15 fuel pump, and that I could only see it from this Malaysian Auto Elec site here:

https://www.e-trimas.com/hx-83250-fm

I ordered some, but who knows when that's going to arrive.

Then I saw this post, and I found that the specified picture has what must be the actual plug I'm looking for, from EFISolutions. I had discounted this because the bottom row photos aren't for the R34 and I had already come to conclusion that they didn't have it. But there it is, staring me in the face in the top right corner as I come to make this post to see if anyone knew a place I could source one.

I already ordered from EFISolutions... twice. Maybe I can sneak two of these connectors into my still pending 2nd order.

[admS15]

Happy to have been of service 😉

[Kinkstaah]

I am now the owner of 5x R34/S15 fuel plugs, two from EFISolutions and 3x from Trimas. The Trimas ones come pre-terminated and the pins are locked in, I had some issues building the others and they somewhat want to pop out. That said, they were still pretty secure, the DW300 went in perfectly, and I can even use that bulkhead I had always kept to actually put over the top of the fuel hat.

And the car runs, the fuel pressure gauge doesn't leak, and all of that is swell.

Went to Body Shop, dropped off everything, and I do mean everything:



_POV: your car looks awful so you replace every panel_

All in all very positive, as well as things always are at the start of any major work when dropping a car off. Will see how it goes I suppose!

[Kinkstaah]

(it went very gregged).
The car has been dropped off again, at a second shop, last week.

Will see how it goes, again, I suppose!