Water To Air Intercooler Setup

[Rekin]

Hey all,

Got an issue with my current setup and was wondering what would be the best way to get around it.

Currently im running a rebuilt hks2530 tuned to 15psi putting out 210kw. My future goals is to put in some cam gears and tune it to 19psi to reach 230kw~

My problem is cooling side of things.

At the moment im running an ARC sidemount pictured below. They are 50% larger than r34 smic, direct bolt-on and very stealth.

Ive noticed that when sitting in traffic in a hot day and then finally moving off, the car was lightly detonating (rattling sound from the bonnet ) I believe it would be my smic heatsoaked and causing the problems.

Now before everyone jumps on the fmic bro' bandwagon the reason why Im not keen on one is;

- Dont want to cut up front bar/reo bar

- Dont want attention from cops (yes i know you can paint it black)

- Dont want to lose my factory drop down spoiler (this has 2 large motors where an fmic would go and there is no chance of fitting one in; For those who dont know here is a vid;

)

So to get around this problem, i was thinking of running a water to air intercooler system with my sidemount. The system would look similar to this;

whereby the w2a barrell is placed inline with the intercooler piping and the radiator would be placed where a fmic would usually go.

I was thinking of getting a 270hp water-to-air inline barrel and placing it in the piping just before the manifold. So the air will be cooled first by the SMIC, then travel through the w2a barrel and then into the manifold. Im hoping the extra cooling of the smic will allow me to push the power to 300hp.

As water can absorb 4x as much heat as air can it is a great method of cooling but it retains heat for much longer, so a good radiator needs to be coupled with it.

The water-to-air setup will cost about $700, so its similar pricing to a good quality front mount (Blitz return-flow) hence why im keen on trying it out.

I was wondering if anyone would have any experience or valid knowledge about this setup im proposing? There's a lot of talk floating around the water getting heat soaked on daily/track driving but reading through american forums they say this is only myth. Would like to hear from someone who has credible information.

The majority of people just go straight w2a setup or straight a2a setup, whereas i want to try a mix of both as it is the cheapest option. Another option I could do is place a larger w2a barrel in the space an fmic would go but would involve some custom piping to get around the drop-down spoiler etc

If i do go through with this, ill probably hook up a temp sensor on the pipings so I could show the impact in temperature drops, but yeah interested to hear what people have to say.

Cheers

[paulr33]

we all said the SMIC replacement is pointless

the issue with the smic is lack of airflow and the core is tiny vs how much work it has to do

just do what everyone else does and fit a FMIC

it can be done with chopping the reo bar (mine isnt chopped, many others arent)

and if installed correctly can still be stealth ish

[R31Nismoid]

Another option - Get a custom core made, dont have it mounted fully to the front.

A FMIC doesn't have to be visible, mine isn't.

That's how a GTS-R has it factory, there are no temp/soak problems having it right next to the radiator as the clutch fan sucks the air through.

I can't find a decent picture of how mine is

[VB-]

it seems there are varying opinions around on them. places like HPF say they arent suited to the street becuase over time the water in the tank heats up and they've had trouble getting the heat out of it again (ie heat soak)

others campaign for W2A coolers saying that they dont suffer from heat soak like A2A do.

the secret, i believe, is in slowing the water down as it passes through the core and radiator, and allow time for the heat to really be transfered whered it needs to be. if you go ahead it with it, it could be something to try, fitting different restrictors on the water side, or even a tap somehwere in the system, that can adjust water flow to monitor inlet temps while on a dyno or something

[Rekin]

we all said the SMIC replacement is pointless

the issue with the smic is lack of airflow and the core is tiny vs how much work it has to do

just do what everyone else does and fit a FMIC

it can be done with chopping the reo bar (mine isnt chopped, many others arent)

and if installed correctly can still be stealth ish

The trusty smic has survived to 200kw it has done me well I blame aussie weather not the smic haha

As mentioned before, even if i choose to go fmic and get around the chopping it will not fit with the drop down spoiler. The spoiler retracts under the front bar and has 2 large motors on both sides taking up a large amount of space (good luck trying to run a return pipe under the fmic)

Another option - Get a custom core made, dont have it mounted fully to the front.

A FMIC doesn't have to be visible, mine isn't.

That's how a GTS-R has it factory, there are no temp/soak problems having it right next to the radiator as the clutch fan sucks the air through.

I can't find a decent picture of how mine is

Interested to know how you did it in your GTS-R, as it also has the drop down spoiler. Although yours flips out flush with the frontbar where as the r32 is further behind (in front of the radiator but behind the front bar)

I was thinking of buying a small dual-pass fmic from justjap and some custom piping but its barely larger than the ARC and is quite poor in design in terms of the tanks/fins/tubes etc.

Another option is an Apexi return flow fmic for gtst but getting one of them from japan will cost $500 second hand and half of it is covered lol

Hence why im leaning towards a w2a system to run inline with the smic...

[R31Nismoid]

GTS-Rs dont have the auto spoiler - its a fixed "rubber" lip type thing

If you have time to go past Micolour in the next week, feel free to ask Mick if he can show you it - i don't mind.

[Rekin]

GTS-Rs dont have the auto spoiler - its a fixed "rubber" lip type thing

If you have time to go past Micolour in the next week, feel free to ask Mick if he can show you it - i don't mind.

ah my mistake, thought all the r31's from japan had the drop down spoilers. Cheers for the offer, will prob have to go down there and get him to fix the stonechips on my month-old paint

In regards to heatsoak issue, ive heard to overcome this is to put in a reservoir in the system (ie a medium sized catchcan) By having more water through the system, this means less chance of water becoming heatsoaked. However, I am still running the SMIC which takes a fair amount of heat out of the air so the w2a wont be exposed to large heat

Was also thinking intercooler waterspray kit, but would constantly need to monitor water levels

If anyone have any better ideas let me know!

[NYTSKY]

Plasmaman make good kits.

[XRATED]

Is it a 31 coupe or a 32 (you have a 32 in your sig) with an auto spoiler?

I had a narrow core made up to fit above the auto spoiler motors back in the day with my r31 gts-x.

As for the smic into the water to air... I wouln't bother, I'm only guessing but I think you'll find some nasty flow restriction and turbulance... Not to mention all the extra plumbing.

If you want to stick with the smic, maybe look at making it more efficient. Bigger-better duct work (In and out), thermo fan on the backside of the core, water-meth spray onto the core on boost (I used to use the rear window washer motor and a boost switch- watermeth works well on your windscreen too).

Water to air coolers are great too... but unless you can hide the cooler barell and large front mounted radiator it's going to look modified anyway.

Why re-invent the wheel? Sell the smic, buy a core that will fit and paint it black and make up some plumbing that utilises the stock engine bay plumbing (so it looks stock when you open the bonnet).

http://www.otomoto.com.au/kkr/intercoolers/index.html

http://justjap.com/store/product.php?produ...at=0&page=1

Good luck

J.

[badhairdave]

Where in the rev range is it pinging and at what sort of load?

1) does your ecu have timing correction vs air temp? Have you thought about pulling a bit of timing out of it? A good tune needs to be safe in all situations so a touch up isn't out of the question and audible detonation means there's a fair bit there.

2) fan on the smic triggered by a temp sensor as a maintenance free solution though the fan will block some airflow once you are moving

3) water spray, again triggered by a temp switch. Would just require occasional checks/top up when you get petrol.

[Rekin]

Plasmaman make good kits.

Thanks for that, had a look through their website, real nice w2a intercoolers

Is it a 31 coupe or a 32 (you have a 32 in your sig) with an auto spoiler?

I had a narrow core made up to fit above the auto spoiler motors back in the day with my r31 gts-x.

As for the smic into the water to air... I wouln't bother, I'm only guessing but I think you'll find some nasty flow restriction and turbulance... Not to mention all the extra plumbing.

If you want to stick with the smic, maybe look at making it more efficient. Bigger-better duct work (In and out), thermo fan on the backside of the core, water-meth spray onto the core on boost (I used to use the rear window washer motor and a boost switch- watermeth works well on your windscreen too).

Water to air coolers are great too... but unless you can hide the cooler barell and large front mounted radiator it's going to look modified anyway.

Why re-invent the wheel? Sell the smic, buy a core that will fit and paint it black and make up some plumbing that utilises the stock engine bay plumbing (so it looks stock when you open the bonnet).

http://www.otomoto.com.au/kkr/intercoolers/index.html

http://justjap.com/store/product.php?produ...at=0&page=1

Good luck

J.

Its a R32 gtst with a factory option of drop down spoiler (

)

Difference is Nissan moved it further behind the front bar so it takes up the space between the radiator and the front bar.

The goal is to put the w2a inline barrel in the straight pipe just before it bends and enters the manifold, although having a look at it, its a big tight and would be a bit of mucking around to fit it in.

Here's a pic of where i was thinking of fitting it (not my engine bay)

Ill look into the smic fan and ducting, found a lot of info on autospeed website.

Cheers for the fmic links, I did purchase a similar one but it was too long and still fat to fit in. Those ones are smaller and will see if i can shoe-horn one in.

Where in the rev range is it pinging and at what sort of load?

1) does your ecu have timing correction vs air temp? Have you thought about pulling a bit of timing out of it? A good tune needs to be safe in all situations so a touch up isn't out of the question and audible detonation means there's a fair bit there.

2) fan on the smic triggered by a temp sensor as a maintenance free solution though the fan will block some airflow once you are moving

3) water spray, again triggered by a temp switch. Would just require occasional checks/top up when you get petrol.

Ill be going back to my tuner this week to see if he can touch up the tune. Im running nistune which has a knock-map if knock is detected however it didnt feel like it switched maps. Will see if i can change the sensitivity.

Ill deff look into the fan and water spray.

Cheers all

[SKYPER]

Check your cars ECU tune.

Look at your cars engine A/F ratio and where the sound occurs while accelerating -

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9359/afri.jpg

Lean A/F ratio = hotter combustion gasses and when mixed with slightly hotter intake temps on hot day, bad batch of fuel, engine could knock.

Info on A/F ratio -

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarre...bo_tech102.html

When engine knocks with stock R32 RB20DET ECU maps, stock R32 RB20DET ECU doesn't pull ignition timing on knock ignition map. It does add fuel above 4400rpm or so when engine knocks via knock fuel map (on boost, etc).

Edited February 16, 2010 by SKYPER

[STATUS]

Check your cars ECU tune.

Look at your cars engine A/F ratio and where the sound occurs while accelerating -

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9359/afri.jpg

Lean A/F ratio = hotter combustion gasses and when mixed with slightly hotter intake temps on hot day, bad batch of fuel, engine could knock.

Info on A/F ratio -

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarre...bo_tech102.html

When engine knocks with stock R32 RB20DET ECU maps, stock R32 RB20DET ECU doesn't pull ignition timing on knock ignition map. It does add fuel above 4400rpm or so when engine knocks via knock fuel map (on boost, etc).

The problemin this case is is to stop it ALL the time you need to pull 10 degrees of timing out of the whole boost map, the heat soak is that bad. On the dyno it pulls 210ish for about 10 pulls then it gets to the point its making 170 -odd witht the required timing pulled out. We had to take a median point so it was at least safe in the most condtitions (track with decent airflow etc), but unfortunately stop start driving just cant be compesated for without taking ALL the timing out. There is no AIT compensation in these ecu's either which isnt helping.

Water meth would be the best solution if a decent front mount is a definate no go.

[bozodos]

front mount + auto spoiler is possible (generic just jap cooler) on HR-31, best mate did it by belting the end tanks in about 1mm, the wiring was a whole other bundle of fun however!

can you upload a pic pls of your auto spoiler Rekin, I'm really curious to see what they look like.

[SKYPER]

The problem in this case is is to stop it ALL the time you need to pull 10 degrees of timing out of the whole boost map, the heat soak is that bad. On the dyno it pulls 210ish for about 10 pulls then it gets to the point its making 170 -odd witht the required timing pulled out. We had to take a median point so it was at least safe in the most condtitions (track with decent airflow etc), but unfortunately stop start driving just cant be compesated for without taking ALL the timing out. There is no AIT compensation in these ecu's either which isnt helping. Water meth would be the best solution if a decent front mount is a definate no go.

Wow, sounds bad heat soak wise. Have you tried removing plastic archway panel behind SMIC to see if it makes a difference??? Heat buildup behind SMIC and the resulting heat soak on back of SMIC is a known problem with SMIC configuration. More so with ARC SMIC (105mm), as SMIC can touch plastic archway panel giving little or no space for hot air to escape SMIC and would heat soak the back of SMIC. ARC sell plates made of I guess is aluminium? with louvers for archway plastic panel that help with evacuating hot air behind SMIC. So I gather they knew the problem was there and found a solution for oilcooler and SMIC. R34GTT had a side duct in front bumper to help with removing hot air behind stock SMIC. I would think FMIC would have radiator fan, gap behind intercooler, etc, which helps to evacuate the hot air from behind intercooler. Another option is front mounting the SMIC, like found on stock R35GTR, which should solve the heat soak on back of intercooler problem. I have seen this front mounted SMIC idea on one R32.

Here's the ARC louvers (Wind Master) for plastic archway panel that I was talking about on ARC website and shows the airflow differences with and without Wind Master panel -

http://www.arcinter.co.jp/arc/products/ext...ster/index.html

Also factory plastic ducting that goes to stock SMIC would help with air entering SMIC core, not going around SMIC core.

Edited February 16, 2010 by SKYPER

[Sir Lord Van Von Vader'ham]

I would imagine that when sitting in traffic that you would have no air flowing through your SMIC where as a FMIC would have a little due to the engine fan.

But i think the issue is somewhere else (tune?) as 32 with a standard SMIC doesn't have these problems otherwise they never would have been sold with them...

[STATUS]

I would imagine that when sitting in traffic that you would have no air flowing through your SMIC where as a FMIC would have a little due to the engine fan.

But i think the issue is somewhere else (tune?) as 32 with a standard SMIC doesn't have these problems otherwise they never would have been sold with them...

yep but add a bigger turbo like this car has and it all turns to shit.....

[SKYPER]

I gather factory runs conservative ignition timing and runs engine rich to help in solving the heat soak problem with stock SMIC???

Also stock car has a airbox. Actually part of the cause could be exposed podfilter sucking in hot air from engine fan at idle and raising intake temps, as I've noticed on a hot day that temps in engine bay rise when car is stationary and hot air gets blown onto podfilter from engine fan. But when car is moving, it should be getting enough cooler airflow to drop intake temps a bit, unless it's a very hot day. Maybe cold airbox or switching back to stock airbox might help???

The benefit of front mounting SMIC might have a similar cooling effect as front mount intercooler. They wouldn't have done it on the R35GTR with 2x small intercoolers with ducting, etc, if they didn't see the benefit. Even with upgraded intercoolers on R35GTR that are similar in size to ARC 105mm intercooler, it seems from the data supplied in link below to keep intake temps down and cool slightly better than factory intercoolers. So I guess it works when SMIC is front mounted (might be worth comparing intake temp data in link below with dyno run intake temp data???) -

http://www.gtrblog.com/2009/06/03/greddy-s...ping-in-the-us/

They have achieved up to 822awhp with upgraded intercoolers in link above, upgraded turbo's, etc on garage Saurus R35GTR with 22psi -

http://www.gtrblog.com/2009/08/12/trust-an...s-834ps-wheels/

I gather GOTO R35GTR runs a similar setup, as they have run 22.5psi through 2x intercoolers, bigger turbo's, etc for 787awhp, as shown in link below -

GOTO R35GTR was racing at Thunderhill, which I think is in Texas, where air temps might be higher -

R35GTR ECU might have IAT sensor, so be able to compensate for increased intake airtemp. But they must be running high boost levels, as GOTO R35GTR looks quick.

Autotrans oilcoolers are similar, as closer to aircon / radiator core the better the autotrans oilcooler cools. So the R31 GTS-R intercooler idea sounds good, but from what I have seen in photo's, GTS-R had the aircon core mounted flat, under front of GTS-R (can't remember what side it was on, but might have been driver side). R32 has aircon core infront of radiator which might become a problem.

Edited February 17, 2010 by SKYPER

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

add a bigger turbo and you always need a host of supporting mods.... people really need to get rid of that old adage that you can just throw on a bigger turbo and/or just up the boost and you have a racecar

[Sir Lord Van Von Vader'ham]

yep but add a bigger turbo like this car has and it all turns to shit.....

yeah, but i dont think it will be generating much more heat at idle than a standard turbo, if any (correct me if im wrong). i tend to think it would be a combination of things like sucking hot air thru the pod (as skyper said), no air flow through SMIC at stand still, tune etc...

it would be cheaper with a whole lot less headaches to work through these things (maybe not tuning) first, before adding the w2a.