Help! I Keep Warping Exhaust Manifolds And Turbo Housings

[gotRICE?]

Well there you go. Another GTRS bending flanges.

That pic that you posted was a pretty spectacular effort!

Get a GT30

[Checkbuzz]

Thanks mate... I've just spent an hour on the phone talking GT30 options

You are now the 3rd person I've heard from who has experienced this problem with the HKS GT-RS (was it RB25?rwkw?)

The plot thickens...

Well there you go. Another GTRS bending flanges.

That pic that you posted was a pretty spectacular effort!

Get a GT30

[The Sherrid]

Whatever dude...

My last post was an update not a cry for help, although I do value most opinions and feedback.

What am I supposed to do listen to a bunch of keyboard mechanics (and critics) over my experienced tuner and ATP?

Do you really think you know more about it than these guys?

Don't loose your cool dude, you asked for help and suggestions and they were given in good spirits. no one here seems to be making a name for themselves at your expense. we may not be able to give you the silver bullet you were looking for but it seems to have come out in the wash for you anyway.

lithium and r31 nismoid seem to have the right approach in that if you want to know exactly what is causing this, someone will need to instigate some trial and error. you could start with some of their suggestions to satisfy yourself and rule them out.

good luck with finding the right turbo for your needs and i hope to see you at the track sometime.

Out of curiosity, Is it more severe at certain tracks?

[TurboMick]

I haven't read every reply, but do not pull timing as some are saying to do. I'd be logging it again while on the track. It would be best to richten It up slightly (say two or three points) before hand, pull 2psi of boost, and then ADD some timing (maybe 4 degrees, whatever your tuner is happy with).This will definitely reduce exhaust temps, and likely increase transient response and 'feel' too.

[The Dan]

Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done for the tune. If only it were that simple.

With a turbo that small, making the power he does, means adding timing will make it ping. Reducing timing to stop the pinging will add heat and making it rich will do stuff all.

THIS TURBO IS TOO SMALL FOR TRACK APPLICATIONS.

For a street car, not a problem. Probably the most responsive upgrade to the factory setup you can hope for. I spent a fair bit of time talking with CB on the phone and talking with his tuner (who is extremely switched on and has many track and drag cars under his belt) but the simple fact is that you cannot get the gas to flow out of a turbine housing that small and make as much power for extended periods.

Not sure if it's been mentioned already but it's making 245rwkw so I am told

All heat is going to gather at the entry to the scroll where the housing begins. It's warping the manifold and the turbo but only at the flange face. It doesn't warp the face of the manifold against the head.

The ONLY way to stop it from warping is to reduce the power or change to a higher flowing turbine/housing combination

[Ryno]

This has been an interesting read...

I've been running a HKS GT-RS turbo for at least the last 6 years, I haven't experienced any of the warping mentioned in this thread, though my car hasn't hit the track to really push the setup.

I'm in the process of fitting a tuned length exhaust manifold with external wastegate, so the internal wastegate of the turbo will be locked shut. I'm wondering if you did this option would it fix this issue of the turbine housing warping?

The reason I'm thinking it could help with this excess heat issue, is that wastegate gasses are going to be diverted to the external wastegate before going through the turbine housing... Less gasses go through the housing, less pressure buildup at that point and less heat. Thoughts?

[DVS JEZ]

Could Add a big external gate to the housing, should help relieve some manifold pressure and let it breath.

Or bigger turbo as eeryone has suggested.

One other thing, what spark plugs are u running?

[Rolls]

External gate and a larger exhaust manifold would help a little by giving more volume of metal to heat soak, would also reduce friction ever so slightly. Might be enough to stop it, might not.

[Checkbuzz]

I hate to be Mr obvious but the only person who is really qualified to answer this question already has:

"THIS TURBO IS TOO SMALL FOR TRACK APPLICATIONS." (i.e on an RB25)

You have been warned... but maybe PM Daniel (@ERD) and ask him what he thinks, he is a very helpful and knowledgeable guy.

IMO the tuned length exhaust manifold will have less mass and be a less effective heat sink than the OEM cast item, it will therefore warp easier as well as costing a lot more money to replace.

Get a GT30 and then wonder why you ever bothered with the GT-RS...

[scotty nm35]

More likely HKS cheap skated on casting materials. You don't see this happening with modern Chinese rear housings...

[Ryno]

Checkbuzz I realise this is you originally started this thread, but you clearly do not understand the concept of what is being done to my car with the GTRS...

Rather than quoting the one line that Elite Racing has written that you obviously love: THIS TURBO IS TOO SMALL FOR TRACK APPLICATIONS, how about you read this part of what he has said "All heat is going to gather at the entry to the scroll where the housing begins. It's warping the manifold and the turbo but only at the flange face." and consider that all my wastegate gasses are going to be diverted to the wastegate prior to this point.

You have no idea what background people have on here, so rubbishing every one's qualifications (to comment) other than your bosom buddy Elite Racing is a little delinquent.

[Checkbuzz]

I understand the concept plenty... but you sound like you're looking for the answer that suits what you want to do anyway.

Good luck with that!

Checkbuzz I realise this is you originally started this thread, but you clearly do not understand the concept of what is being done to my car with the GTRS...

Rather than quoting the one line that Elite Racing has written that you obviously love: THIS TURBO IS TOO SMALL FOR TRACK APPLICATIONS, how about you read this part of what he has said "All heat is going to gather at the entry to the scroll where the housing begins. It's warping the manifold and the turbo but only at the flange face." and consider that all my wastegate gasses are going to be diverted to the wastegate prior to this point.

You have no idea what background people have on here, so rubbishing every one's qualifications (to comment) other than your bosom buddy Elite Racing is a little delinquent.

[Rolls]

Manifold + external gate will cost more than replacing it with a small gt30, eg 3071

Also it MAY not work which would make it very expensive.

[Ryno]

Rolls, you misunderstand what I'm doing. The manifold and external gate is going on to make the car as responsive as possible. I don't track my car, so warping of the GT-RS turbine flange isn't a concern for me. I'm just curious to know whether this could prevent the warping issue. I was after some intelligent discussion, though this is hard to find on here at times.

[GTSBoy]

I would suggest the amount of mass of metal in the manifold would have little effect on what happens. The simple fact is that the flow from all 6 is aimed at the collector/flange. If there is a nasty restriction down there (the hot side of the turbo) then the pressure will be high, the temperature will increase (because the pressure is high). Less restriction is the answer.

[Rolls]

Rolls, you misunderstand what I'm doing. The manifold and external gate is going on to make the car as responsive as possible. I don't track my car, so warping of the GT-RS turbine flange isn't a concern for me. I'm just curious to know whether this could prevent the warping issue. I was after some intelligent discussion, though this is hard to find on here at times.

Oh fair call, I mixed you and the OP up. Tbh external gate and bigger manifold would probably decrease the response of the turbo, but it will flow better and make more power.

[Ryno]

Oh fair call, I mixed you and the OP up. Tbh external gate and bigger manifold would probably decrease the response of the turbo, but it will flow better and make more power.

Due to the collector design it has increased the response of the turbo, it now has response as good as the stock turbo ~ 5 psi of boost at 2000 rpm and full boost before 3000 rpm. Due to the temperature today I was unable to get a full tune completed, however with the new setup it has achieved 235 rwkw at 14 psi. On the same dyno last year it put down 230 rwkw at 18 psi (on a colder day) - So the results so far have been quite positive.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Ryno

[Rolls]

Do you have a dyno comparison showing the increased spoolup/response? You will get better power due to less restriction, eg at 14psi it is probably flowing close to what it did at 18psi.

I would be sceptical of it making the 18psi earlier with the aftermarket gate + manifold earlier than the stock one, you can't compare 14psi and 18psi as "full boost" at the same time as its a different pressure!

Edited January 18, 2013 by Rolls

[Ryno]

Do you have a dyno comparison showing the increased spoolup/response? You will get better power due to less restriction, eg at 14psi it is probably flowing close to what it did at 18psi.

I would be sceptical of it making the 18psi earlier with the aftermarket gate + manifold earlier than the stock one, you can't compare 14psi and 18psi as "full boost" at the same time as its a different pressure!

Once I get it tuned for 18 psi I'll put up an overlay so the comparison is evident. The manifold I have used utilises 1" runners and merges into a collector that smashes the turbo and provides the increased spooling.

Looking at a dyno graph for my previous setup, the GT-RS hit 5 psi at 2700 rpm... So a 700 rpm improvement is pretty cool.

[Roy]

1" runners is damn small!

Also, when at the track I always let the car idle up good and proper which gets heat through everything in the engine bay and spend the first two laps gradually building loads and revs as I warm up tyres and brakes. The thermal shock things get when you blast them from near cold with 800deg C exhaust gases until they glow red and then shut it down to click and tick itself cold...is never going to be good . Even if thats not the source of your problems it is a good practice on a car that is tracked