Questions On Overtraining, Plateau, Full Body Vs Split?

[No Crust Racing]

A few questions this morning guys.

I've hit a bit of a wall on the bench and curls and when coupled with some very average sleep of late I've built up a few strains here and there so will be taking the rest of the week off. I assume these are signs of over training.

When I say plateau I'm talking about adding 1KG to the bench and consistently failing to achieve the 8th rep of the third set, either I abort at rep 7 as I don't think I'll get back over the pins on 8 or I just scrape over the pins on the 8th. If I drop that 1kg off, I'll get bacl to completing my full 3x8.

In terms of curls it's more a case of getting to a point where I'm not getting stronger, just getting sore. I have an old left arm elbow/bicep tendon injury that I have to manage carefully hence taking some time off this week.

I'm 6ft, currently 86kg first thing in the morning after a leak, cheap digital scales say 14% BF which has recently come up from 12.5%-13% or so as I broke my leg/dislocated my ankle in October and have only just started being able to do cardio again (I've been able to do upper body gym during that time).

My routine looks like this and is done M/W/F I'll list it as exercise/weight/sets and reps/success/failure and a breakdown of rest time.

Flat Bench/87-88kg/3x8/Success on 87, consistent failure on 88, 60 secs between set 1-2, 90 sec between 2-3.

Crunches with swiss ball for 150reps

Ezi-Bar Standing Military Press/39.5kg/3x8/Consistent success/45secs between 1-2, 60secs between 2-3 (going up slowly on this as I have to stand to do it).

Ezi-bar bicep curls/42kg/3x8/Scrap in success, probably bending back too much on the last rep to get it/ 60secs between 1-2, 90 secs between 2-3.

Ezi-bar Stiff Leg Deadlift/Romanian Deadlift (depending your opinion on which is which)/39.5kg/3x8/Consistent success/45secs between 1-2, 60secs between 2-3 (going up slowly on this as I have to stand to do it).

Ezi-bar barbell rows/39.5kg/3x8/Consistent success/45secs between 1-2, 60secs between 2-3 (going up slowly on this as I have to stand to do it).

Lying cross chet tricep extensions (when looking for the name I could not find the video that showed you using your other arm to support the working arm but that's how I do them) 17.6kg/3x8/Success/60 secs between sets

Lying Alternating Leg lifts (where each leg up and down is one rep) 150 reps

Flat Bench/approx 75-76kg/3x10/Mostly success/60 secs between sets

Concentration curls/22kg/3x10/failing by 7-9th rep on third set on the left arm, I stop the right on what the left failed at to keep balance/60 secs between sets.

Bench dips/3x50/60 secs between reps.

Hammer Curls/16.5kg per arm/3x8 per arm done alternating at the same time/Success but I'd say form suffers towards the end/45sec between set 1-2, 60 sec between 2-3.

That's where I'm at right now and it can take between 60-70mins to complete. In terms of eating I've cut back a little to offset the missing cardio as my leg heals, now that I can work daily that will help the mid section bf %. I take fish oil and a multi daily and use Dymatize Elite WPI as my supp. Full scoop after workouts, half scoop on the mornings after.

Realistically, I don't think I want to get "that" much bigger/stronger though obviously I'll be adding some more leg work in there, likely dumbell lunges and getting back to running, I don't do full squats as i do not have a rack and I tend to get to about 60-70kg on the bar and it becomes unruly to get it on my shoulders each time. I'd be happy at say 87-88kg but a touch leaner and with bigger legs than currently.

That said, if I'm plateauing I'm wondering if I should consider moving to a 3 day split as I may not be having enough rest days between sessions for a given muscle. I'm also thinking that if I stick to full body I'll cut back to 2 bicep exercises, I had 3 in there for a period to try and get some extra circumference in there.

What do you think? If split is better at this level (and I don't think I'm big or tough or anything given I've been much stronger before and can't get back there I just mean that I'm at least beyond a total beginner) is there a good basic 3 day split that would be decent starting point? Is my full body OK but just needs some adjustment or I need to take a week off then mix up the order/reps/sets or something. I really do need to remember to deload, bt how often is right? just different for everyone? average every 4, 5,6 weeks?

Ideally I'd like to reduce my session times as we have a baby on the way and 3x 6-70min sessions straight after work might not be as easy to get done soon.

Thoughts?

Edited February 18, 2013 by ActionDan

[jangles]

The biggest issue I read was you don't want to get stronger. Yet complaining you keep failing/plateauing. Those lifts aren't very 'heavy' for a guy your 'size'

Do you know about the 3 big lifts?

Get stronger and you'll be able to do full squats.

Get a decent progressive training program that sets you up with goals and targets to hit and meet, quite a few good ones about.

Markos on here has a good one based on his years of experience.

One I've personally have had great success with is using Dave tates period table 531

Edited February 18, 2013 by jangles

[No Crust Racing]

No I said "that" much bigger/stronger, and to clarify, I mean I'm not out to set any records or have trouble getting around to wipe my own arse, just happy to have a bit of beef on me, fill a shirt and not look like I'd have troulbe getting the lid off the jam jar .

I did also mention a weight/physique goal.

Big3, as in bench/squat/deads? Yes I'm familiar with the terminology and used to do better numbers on everything, including those, back in the day I'm 30 now, dont recover as fast, am not a power lifter, and have a semi working ankle/leg so I have adjusted my routine accordingly.

Now I'm looking forward and considering my options to gain a bit more without ending up with over training symptoms/aggravating injuries etc.

Having a goal doesn't mean you will hit it, nice to have a target of course, but when you're topping out then something needs to change, a simple target is probably not enough.

I could do squats now but I need to take it easy on my ankle/leg. That said, that wasn't really the question but thanks for the feedback anyway

Edited February 18, 2013 by ActionDan

[Dani Boi]

You could try deloading over the week i.e. 8 rep max - 100% Mon, 90% Wed, 80% Fri but keep the reps the same over the week, then next week go for 9 reps etc. Best to stick to a program if you can.

[No Crust Racing]

Always or for one week every so often?

[Birds]

1. You aren't overtraining.

2. Stop curling so much.

3. Where are the squats?

4. If you have to curl, do it last, after your compound movements. And do it once.

5. Why is your bench more than your deadlift and non-existent squat?

6. Your routine sucks, no easy way of saying it. You need to get on starting strength or something more basic and compounding. Or hit me up with a PM and I'll put something together for you.

7. Instead of worrying about losing the 8th rep on bench by adding 1kg and only doing 7, add 2kg and you'll probably still do 7. Train that for a couple weeks and then go back to the 1kg increment...presto! 8 reps. Or put in a 1RM set at the end and watch the rest of your sets benefit.

8. Pullups/pulldowns?

9. Sleep and eat more.

10. No excuses.

[No Crust Racing]

1. You aren't overtraining.

2. Stop curling so much.

3. Where are the squats?

4. If you have to curl, do it last, after your compound movements. And do it once.

5. Why is your bench more than your deadlift and non-existent squat?

6. Your routine sucks, no easy way of saying it. You need to get on starting strength or something more basic and compounding. Or hit me up with a PM and I'll put something together for you.

7. Instead of worrying about losing the 8th rep on bench by adding 1kg and only doing 7, add 2kg and you'll probably still do 7. Train that for a couple weeks and then go back to the 1kg increment...presto! 8 reps...

8. Pullups/pulldowns?

9. Sleep and eat more.

10. No excuses.

1) I'm not recovering fast enough so im doing something wrong.

2) In general as in as many exercises, or do you mean the amount of weight?

3) Absent, I did have more leg work in previously but it's been removed while I get my ankle right, I 90 degree dislocated the ankle, spiral fractured the fib and have a plate and 7 screws left over, at the moment walking 3ks daily is enough of a strain on it, surgeon said expect a solid 12mths before it's close to better, it's been 4.

4) As per 2, curl only once? I'd have no arms, at best flexed and fully pumped they'd be 16inchs around, so relaxed and not straight after a workout they are not big at all.

5) I've always been much stronger on the chest and I have been able to add weight to that safer/with less issues than leg work with my equipment at home (all free weights/ no power rack). My SLDL is low as per my above comment on the leg, same for squat. I can add a squat back in but I was going to add dumbell lunges instead, as I can do those with a higher degree of safety, was doing those with 25kg on each arm previously) Before injurying my leg I was covering about 100k a month running also so the legs were always a bit more tired.

6) Harsh, lol, This routine has come about after expanding on the basic strength routine talked about on here, minus the squats obviously, I develop faster upper body than lower (I have long legs which seem to train up shit) Obviously numbers are low on leg work due to ankle.

7) Have done that before with great success, added more weight, dropped reps to 6, gone back to lower weight and killed the 8 reps, I didn't want to do this just yet as I felt like I was over training/doing it wrong for now and wanted to re-assess.

8) Nowhere to do them at home, used to love pull ups. I really should try and find a bloody rack.

9) Went to bed earlier last night, feel heaps better today admittedly, pregnant missus = disrupted sleep. Have cut back on eating a little but to combat the extra fat from lack of cardio while leg is stuffed.

10) Yes and no, that attitude caused me a few injuries in the past so I try and be a bit more sensible now, I'm not about to accelerate my likely case of arthritis in my ankle or risk blowing out the joint again just to be hectic.

Appreciate the feedback.

Nobody is touching on the full body/3 day split?

[Birds]

We bicep curl the same weight and I have 15" arms...and I rarely do curls...there's your problem. If you do heavy deadlifts and pullups, you are working biceps during these movements, to the point where a lot of people will say you don't need to train them in isolation at all. Train smarter, not harder. Your biceps make up probably 4% of your body's muscle and they're 40% of your routine.

Recovery is equally as important as exercise. There's no point busting your ass at the gym if you're too tired and lacking the energy to get through the next session.

Modified/bastardised, same thing. I know I sound harsh, but from the little information on here I can already see a lot of wrong with what you're doing to try and achieve your goals. Need an overhaul!

Does it hurt to squat / are you allowed to put weight on the ankle? If so, do quad and hamstring extensions.

[No Crust Racing]

We'd have the same size arms then, as that measurement was flexed and straight after a session so pumped up as well.

Very valid point though, 4% of body, 40% of routine, I hadn't thought of it like that.

MY harsh comment was a joke, I don;t take offence to other peoples opinions, especially when I've asked for it.

I haven't tried a squat since busting my leg, but given I can SLDL and stand to do military press, rows etc, I'm confident I can put "some" weight on it. I'm allowed to put weight on it, physio was OK with what I was doing so far.

I might start hunting around for a cage again, I was on the hunt when I busted my leg. Least then I can do pull ups, proper dips, and squat safer.

What do the gurus on here think a good routine looks like then?

[Birds]

My point is, you can bust your ass off making bicep look big with 3 different isolation movements, or you can do deadlifts and pullups...get the same strength and size in your biceps...and work a heap of other muscles at the same time. My ex girlfriend is deadlifting nearly twice as much you

See how you go with the squat. Very important exercise and it will help your bench, believe it or not.

Until you get a 100kg bench, there's no reason you can't do this 3 times a week:

Bench

Squat

Deadlift

Pullups/Rows

Military press

Barbell curls

Dips

I have a fairly comprehensive 2 day split myself, but it involves 4 visits to the gym per week.

[No Crust Racing]

If that's all I was doing I'd be done in 40mins.

Are these supposed to be max exhaustion sets? 3x8 or just sets til failure?

I used to squat about 75 and deadlift about the same but the weight got a bit unruly as I was picking it up from ground and having to press it over my head to rest on shoulders. Have never had a strong back/legs, yes I realise I can change that.

Edited February 19, 2013 by ActionDan

[Birds]

If he above program only takes 40 minutes, then you're not doing heavy enough weight and leaving enough rest between sets. 2-3 minutes rest between sets of major compounds, 1 minute rest between sets of isolation movements. How many sets you do and their rep range is up to you and the type of training you're after. 5x5 is popular for strength. Personally, I like 6x10 for everything.

It's time to turn weaknesses into strengths. I used to have back problems from sitting at a desk all day...was terrified at the thought of doing deadlifts. They fixed my back, no more pain. I now believe they have more healing powers than the elusive squat.

[No Crust Racing]

Oh with 2-3 min breaks that's a bit different. Would also allow me to run more weight on those exercises, well the ones I'm already doing now.

Hmm..

[TTT]

jesus.. what a mind f**k.

I want bigger legs, but don't / can't squat more.

I can't get the last rep with 1kg more and I have 30 seconds more rest

I want to be able to fill a shirt and look like I lift etc etc.

No mention of diet anywhere.

LOL at complaining that the routine listed by birds would only take 40 minutes.

Join a gym and do a simple program filled with compound movements.

Work out what amounts of nutrients you should be having and sort out your diet.

If you are tired, have a longer rest.

If you have elbow issues, stop curling like a bro.. lol.. I can't believe how many curl variations you are doing.

If you feel run down but aren't sick, eat more food.

You have a leg injury so I understand the situation, but I reckon you were a squat dodger all along and always will be.

[No Crust Racing]

Haha!

I can/will/want to squat more, but it has to be slow progression with my leg, and I'd say I've always been soft on the legs, squat dodger as you call it - made me laugh. Have been in the past, not always as I was bigger/more into it back in the day, admittedly finding it hard to take the risk/push harder these days as I dont seem to handle it as well. When I was bencing 3x10 at 100kg I was squatting the same, but never any better than that. I also have those days to thank for the aforementioned elbow issue.

I mentioned the failing rep as a potential example of plateau, but rather than just fixing that one thing thought I should mention everything else as well and look at re-desiging the whole she-bang, dont hate on the guy trying to do it better, we're not all pros

You will see after my initial comment on the workout, I retracted it taking into consideration the extra rest time.

I hate gyms, you won't ever see me there, 100% prefer working out at home, if I need more equipment so be it, not standing around waiting for others, dealing with other peoples sweat and bullshit, my choice, wont be swayed.

As for diet, I'm not loosing weight so I'm eating enough "food" so to speak.

Breakfast will be 4 vitabrits, light milk.

Morning tea will be a few saladas with honey/peanut butter or promite (f**king promite is where its at)
Lunch will be left overs from dinner the night before, or steak/chips/veg on fridays at the pub.

Snacks will be an apple and banana each day and I'll also have a half scoop of protien the day after a workout day.

Dinner could be anything from toasted wraps, home made pizzas, bolognaise, tuna bakes, pie/veg, kebabs/veg, ceaser salad etc, it varies a fair bit.

I drink plenty of water also and if I "drink" it's only on weekends and usually not more than a few unless there's an "even"t on.

lol at curling like a bro, don't know why that makes me laugh so much but consensus is too many curls...

What do you think of the Birds suggested routine?

Edited February 19, 2013 by ActionDan

[TTT]

I train at home too mate.

Here is what I have.

1 x shitty "ol Rusty" power cage.

1 x budget olympic barbell

1 x shitty adjustble bench (this is really shitty and will be replaced with a simple flat bench soon)

Lots x weight plates of varying sizes.

all sits outside under the patio.

All get used and abused nightly.

If there is an exercise that I can do on there, it's not worth doing.

No dumbbells, no cables, no bros.

That routine that Brids pasted is one that Markos put together as a "beginners program" some years back.

nothing magical about it.

It covers everything that needs to be worked.

it is done for 3 sets of 10 reps of each exercise.

it is done 3 times a week

when you get 3 x 10 on an exercise, you increase the weight by 2.5 or 5kg the next time you do it.

You do the above until you can

Squat 140kg x 1 rep

Bench 100kg x 1 rep

Deadlift 180kg x 1 rep

I'd also suggest until you can standign overhead press body weight

PS - Your diet looks like shit.

[No Crust Racing]

I think it's the word Bro that sets me off lol

I'm wondering if I could 1 rep 100kg on the bench now, is it worth knowing this?

This line, "I'd also suggest until you can standign overhead press body weight" You mean I should be able to overhead press your own body weight? Does that really differ from a military press? I thought military just meant standing.

Hate my diet because?

[TTT]

military press or push press.. whatever you fancy.

if you weigh 86kg, then yes, I mean with the bar starting on top of chest (throat area), then pressing it up so it is locked out overhead (like in the olympics)

if you can push press it - good

if you can strict military press it (no leg drive) - great

If you can strict mil press it many times - awesome.

Your diet?

Breakfast will be 4 vitabrits (rubbish processed crap), light milk (dirty water).

Morning tea will be a few saladas (rubbish processed crap) with honey/peanut butter or promite (f**king promite is where its at) - wtf is promite
Lunch will be left overs from dinner the night before, or steak/chips/veg on fridays at the pub.

Snacks will be an apple and banana each day and I'll also have a half scoop of protien the day after a workout day.

Dinner could be anything from toasted wraps (processed carbs), home made pizzas (processed carbs), bolognaise (processed carbs), tuna bakes (processed carbs), pie/veg (processed carbs with veg), kebabs/veg (sounds decent) , ceaser salad (sounds decent) , etc, it varies a fair bit.

Then you are having those at lunch too.

You've taken the old saying of "Squats and Milk" and changed it to "Curls and Flour"

[No Crust Racing]

I'm not sure if I'm supposed be offended or not because I find great humour in your delivery, you cynical bastard

You don't know what Promite is? You need to get educated. http://www.masterfoods.com.au/Products/ProductDetail/tabid/83/ProductId/1675/PROMITE.aspx

When I say toasted wraps or home made pizzas I'm talking a wholemeal wrap full of seasoned chicken, red/green caps, avocado, bit of mayo, grated carrot, grated light cheese etc, same goes for home made pizzas, made on pitas, ham, red/green caps, grated zucchini, mushrooms for me, pineapple, pre-microwaved salami which removes more of the fat.

Everything we have is pretty much made from scratch (so bolognaise contains grated carrot, zucchini etc), before being up the duff the missus was maintaining a happy and healthy 60kg and runs daily, I wouldn't consider us hugely unhealthy to be honest. We both sit all day so if our diet was horrid I'm sure we'd be fatties.

That said, I have noticed a boost on fridays workout, dunno if it's the steal lunch or heaps of sugar or something in the steak sauce or something, i usually always have water with lunch.

Better suggestions?

[Birds]

Squat dodger lol, adding that one to the vocab.

Curls and flour, will use this as a sarcastic suggestion for people looking for gains.