Tr30R Pics And Details You Don't Often See .

[Lithium]

was back at Insight today sorting out a few ViPec tune settings and got to talking about this GT30 business . Scott does enough tuning and travels overseas looking at all kinds of performance things and agrees about this turbine stuff . He thinks that there are good smallish and good biggish turbos around but until recently no-ones really done a good mid sized wheel turbocharger . He says that really the wheel sizes and trims need to be right and fitting small turbine housings to GT30/35 sized turbos is a bit self defeating .

He's curious to see how this GTX3067R would go and reckons its an option , expensive experiment ...

The more I research them the better EFR 7163s sound but solid results are hard to find because the only ones in existence are prototypes sill being fine tuned in some areas . I have to make enquiries OS about turbine housings for EFRs because I need an IW T3 flanged one if possible .

No idea who Scott is, who Insight are, why I should dismiss any doubts I have due to some complete random who appears to agree totally with what you say without any evidence there has been any reasoning put into it beyond the reasoning you expressed earlier - which there is an aspect of which is inherently flawed, but no doubt you didn't regard it as usual.

The more I research them the better EFR 7163s sound but solid results are hard to find because the only ones in existence are prototypes sill being fine tuned in some areas . I have to make enquiries OS about turbine housings for EFRs because I need an IW T3 flanged one if possible .

An EFR7064 would do the job for you absolutely fine as well, yes the EFR7163 will be good if/when it ever goes into production but again the 7064 will be an all around upgrade over that thing you have on there at the moment, especially in transition.

Lithium I did ask him Scott wat would happen if I used that GT3076R 52T 0.82 AR turbo and he said it'd make good power but lose most of the nice drive it every day stuff . He knows what I like and what I don't and he knows I won't like it so why go there .

I also asked briefly about TR30Rs and he said brilliant things in the right sizes . Almost forgot , these are more like a 10 grand turbocharger that comes with a contract so I don't expect to see many on road cars .

You clearly haven't noticed I've not been trying to talk you into the GT3076R, I have even agreed that the GT2871R was probably the best choice for you - at least at the point you went for it. From my perspective the difference between you and I is one of us pays reasonable attention to what other people are saying and what they want - with an open mind to how to get to that point... I suspect if you paid more attention to my posts you'd spend less time beating a dead horse.

Nonetheless, I don't give a shit about what this Scott at Insight will be quoted by you as saying - while I agree that the GT3076R is clearly not a good option for you, they do drive fine on the road. To keep pressing that matter with someone who enjoyed daily driving one for years is blatant stupidity - not to mention missing the point I was trying to make.

I agree the TR30Rs are likely to be brilliant things, and I have expressed my curiousity about them here too. Realistically they probably better suited to their purpose (HEAVY thrashing in rally/antilag and endurance racing) than most of the turbos we discuss on here - arguably short of the EFR turbos which have superceeded them in some places, and ARE available to us. The thing about the TR30Rs is they are designed to be light, strong and fit class restrictions primarily - the performance would of course have been good for it's time but there is absolutely no evidence to show that they will perform any better than combinations which people here can or do already use for their purposes. Any evidence you can present to suggest otherwise would be greatly appreciated. At the moment the theory vs evidence ratio of what you have supplied here is 100:0.

The only person we've seen sharing real world experience with them had the competitive hillclimb car who went from a TR30R to a HTA35R and ended up a much happier man.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Lith, don't get so worked up

some people just don't get it, and breath off theories vs. real life experiences

[Lithium]

Honestly wasn't worked up (this time haha), I am just trying to express how totally irrelevant some stuff is - just trying to keep disco down to earth, these conversations would be way more productive if the lines between theory and reality were distinguished so we could get somewhere further than Discopotato recycling his opinions. There is a lot to be shared, and if we can collectively combine stuff we might end up with a neat idea somewhere.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

I think someone just needs to hand over their keys to him and let him experience a GT3076R, he will be enlightened after that. Or better yet, if he thinks that's laggy put him in a EJ20 WRX for a few days LOL

[Lithium]

I have no doubts that the GT3076R is too laggy for his liking, different strokes for different folks... but misrepresentation of the truth or calling it a fail turbo because it doesn't suit him is where I will engage

I have eluded to it before, the GT3071R and GT3076R are perfectly streetable - the only thing the GT28 can do tangibly better on an RB25 is allow "excessive acceleration" (By NZ Police terms) at a slightly lower engine speed. Given that this is only applicable at low speed (ie rolling out of traffic lights) and I am a law abiding citizen, it has never been a concern for me. The GT3076R+RB25 combination on a well tuned car will accelerate more than sufficiently to drive 'normally' in those rpm ranges, and all other situations will kick happily into life - so really it is part of the reason I've not put too much strain into trying to come up with reasons why to make it respond better.

[discopotato03]

Post deleted .

Lithium your life must be complete having a GTS25T with a GT3076R 0.82 AR .

A .

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Post deleted .

Lithium your life must be complete having a GTS25T with a GT3076R 0.82 AR .

A .

man that's a slight narky comment to make

[Lithium]

It was indeed perfect for me, I moved on because I had pulled the car off the road to decide what next and GotRice? hassled me until I sold it to him lol. The only options which would now suit better would be an EFR7670 or a GT3076R-HTA, which weren't options back then.

Onto the topic, do you have any theories as to why Garrett didn't use a TR30R style turbine for the masses - DP... or why they chose the 84-trim GT30 if it wasn't optimal?

Another point of interest to me is that they never went BB GT32 - though the released a plain bearing tiny trim (73trim) 63mm version which flows less than a 84-trim GT30, probably more comparably with a large a/r GT28. I figure if we're going to explore the gaps and look for ways to fill them - it may be worth considering why Garrett when they were in the position to decide, why they chose to do what they did.

I find it interesting that the TR30R I posted results of earlier COMPLETELY maxed out on E85 at ~450whp (Dynojet style - so ~300kw DynoDynamics) on a really well built motor with no restrictor too - possibly those smaller trim turbines are a compromise to suit the specific needs? Any thoughts?

[GTSBoy]

I would have thought that the TR30R compressor and turbine designs would have been selected because of the peculiar operating conditions (those being mainly a restrictor). Those being that the compressor would operate at the choke point (sonic velocity in the inlet) over most of the engine's operating range and also at quite high PR. On that basis you'd want a compressor wheel with whatever design quirks are required to work under those conditions (I'm not even sure what you'd be trying to work around.....perhaps blade design that boosts efficiently given the strong negative pressure on the inlet side). The turbine side only needs to provide a certain amount of drive power, because the compressor's power requirement is clamped at some level, probably waaaay below what turbo of otherwise similar size would use, and so it would make sense to make it as small and responsive as possible (that much would be obvious anyway). The result would surely be a turbo that would run out of puff if you tried to run it unrestricted. Suddenly you want the back end to flow more than it was intended to, and the compressor wheel is probably way out of the intended part of the efficiency map.

I haven't spent anywhere near as much time thinking about these turbos as you guys have, but it just seems clear to me that every part of a typical TR30R would be unsuited to operating outside it's intended category.

[Lithium]

I would assume those 5:1 pressure ratio compressors are the ones intended for use with restrictors, which leads me to wonder which unit the guy I posted those results for was running. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it turned out he was running the 40trim (shudder) 5:1 pressure ratio unit and had it on kill everywhere - the power and spool would both add up, and it would make sense with the restrictor that the pressure ratios would be enormous.

I haven't done as much research on these specific turbos as Disco, I've ultimately figured that it's not likely to become too useful to me without seeing results to quantify what is happening - but it sounds like our thinking is similar. There are a few things in those specs which reak, at least to me... of "old generation" thinking in terms of the design etc and I suspect like for like EFR turbos would probably be a more attractive thing. The fact that us plebs can acquire them is a big thing as well.

[Mick_o]

I think someone just needs to hand over their keys to him and let him experience a GT3076R, he will be enlightened after that. Or better yet, if he thinks that's laggy put him in a EJ20 WRX for a few days LOL

I offered him a drive in my car with the GTX3071R and was ignored lol That's such a sweet setup on E85 boots u in the ass at 3800 in 2nd and tears your face off all the way to 7500!

[discopotato03]

Do you really want to know Lith or are you you just fishing for target practise .

GTS like any dedicated competition component/assembly they were developed to suit the exact purpose asked for . When restricted classes came about a lot of changes were made because the existing crop of turbochargers were unsuitable - mainly too big to work in the restricted rev range .

Like anything that runs on boost for extended periods they have to work efficiently and reliably on full load . Compared to an OE road turbo thats expected to operate over a wide engine speed range but mainly for short bursts - up a hill or up to lightly loaded cruise speeds - a race turbo is specced differently .

The cars had anti lag systems to excite these things at no speed and lowish revs but once the hammers down its all up to the engine and etc to get the job done .

Turbochargers like any pump don't really like running out of flow and when it comes to air all they have is atmospheric pressure minus any restriction . The people working with restricted turbo engines know what volume its possible to get through a given hole size so they work backwards from there to get the most out of the available flow rate . You would think that effective boost control would be mandatory and I think they used to wind it back getting towards the restrictors limits to avoid surge and damage . I doubt there was any enforced restriction on the exhaust side so they would have been free to set the turbine inlet pressures at or below boost pressures .

The materials in these turbos and their manifolds and exhausts had to withstand tremendous heat levels because ALS is basically external combustion in the exhaust manifold turbine housing and exhaust pipe . Far more brutal than any OE car could take even if the noise and "emissions" levels were allowable .

The only OE cars that I can think , there is probably others , that went to a lot of effort were the Evo Lancers namely the RS versions . They had better materials in their turbines and housings and twin scrolls as well . The ALS stuff is there in the road cars though its inactive .

If you look at the Mitsy turbos on these cars they are hardly huge but they are designed to make lots of mid range torque not a massive extended top end . The TD05HR turbines are quite light in Ti AL form and there were compressors in some of them smaller than the usual 16g6 . The Aus spec TME is actually an RS2 and they have a smaller 15 ( I think) GK2 compressor wheel . I think one of the Evo 9 RS turbos may have used it as well .

Anyhow none of these Evo turbos make big Kw numbers but they seem to give plenty of other road cars a big hurry up at times . My Evo 6 is showroom standard everywhere inc boost and the dryer I have for it is a second series Evo 9 RS one if I ever get round to using it . These have the same wheel and housing sizes as any Evo 9 dryer but the turbine and Magnesium compressor are lighter so the spool and transients are a bit faster/sooner .

I'm more Skyline centric these days because my R33 is the daily and the daily always gets most of my attention .

A .

[Lithium]

Do you really want to know Lith or are you you just fishing for target practise .

A .

When I've call you out it's not for sport, I think you just a few too many times misappropriating some things and I decided that if you are able to back it up you should have the opportunity to - or be reasonable and keep it real.

he materials in these turbos and their manifolds and exhausts had to withstand tremendous heat levels because ALS is basically external combustion in the exhaust manifold turbine housing and exhaust pipe . Far more brutal than any OE car could take even if the noise and "emissions" levels were allowable .

Anyhow none of these Evo turbos make big Kw numbers but they seem to give plenty of other road cars a big hurry up at times . My Evo 6 is showroom standard everywhere inc boost and the dryer I have for it is a second series Evo 9 RS one if I ever get round to using it . These have the same wheel and housing sizes as any Evo 9 dryer but the turbine and Magnesium compressor are lighter so the spool and transients are a bit faster/sooner .

Sounds like we're all on a similar page there - totally agree re-the TR30, I was more curious about the flow etc.. as I had assumed that was the point of this thread. At face value the 60trim 71mm wheel combined with the 76trim turbine sounds like a very interesting combination, would be very interesting to drive/dyno.

Out of interests sake on of the projects which I am involved with is a GC8 STi track toy which will be running a late model EVO twin scroll turbo attached to a modified OEM late model twin scroll Subaru STi exhaust manifold, the car will be ~1100kg and fuelled on E85, I expect it to be proper quick. We've tried an EVO 3 TD05-16G on an RB20 almost a decade ago too, again - very rewarding exercise at a time where everyone else seemed content with putting T3/T4E 57trims onto them and making barely any more power with 1000rpm less full boost rpm.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

I offered him a drive in my car with the GTX3071R and was ignored lol That's such a sweet setup on E85 boots u in the ass at 3800 in 2nd and tears your face off all the way to 7500!

mabs he was scared his experiences would contradict his theories

[Mick_o]

Lol I'm not Gunna speculate on that! but Wolverine drove my car he's had his skyline for a million years now and has had quite a few different setups and he thought my car was one of the sweetest setups he'd driven! Which was a huge compliment for me and considering $$$ spent and that it was a basic bolt on kit with no external gates or manifolds etc.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

but u how haz Evo 9

Light years head of a dinosaur RB25DET

[jet_r31]

Turbos are like women, they are all a compromise somewhere along the line..lol (and to be fair its probally the same with men,haha)

cheers

darren

Edited March 8, 2013 by jet_r31

[Mick_o]

Lol in some aspects yes got a nice BIG box of go fast parts delivered this week too.... With more to come

but u how haz Evo 9

Light years head of a dinosaur RB25DET

[discopotato03]

4G63s are not exactly high tech engines though they were beefed up in the right places . The two best features of the 4 and later engines was the twin scroll turbo systems and the Mivec head on the 9s . I could so use a Mivec head .

Lithium to have a 4 bar 60 pound a minute turbocharger means having a turbine capable of driving the thing reliably . A lot of heat and turbo speed and dud turbines don't cut it . If I had the time I'd be more interested in the application that spec TR30 was on , and the one with the 76mm 56T compressor as well .

Mick o , I did not turn down the offer because I think poorly of your car/results . I just think that what you have is not what I want and I'm looking at other options .

ATM I'm learning to use the ViPecs software and the next round of changes involve injectors and a different fuel pump .

A .

[Dale FZ1]

After a few rounds of views being exchanged, it seems everyone agrees this rare item is for competition use only. And it's going to be a tough thing. Don't know who would care to run their RB25 with 3 bar boost, maybe it could be effective in IPRA category where restrictors are part of the deal.

Wish lists are great but it wouldn't be a good idea to hold your breath waiting to see the TR30 turbine in production this decade at least. Honeywell are probably happy that there are threads like this in existence since it keeps the Garrett name bubbling upwards in consumer's minds. I think the best outcome is that enthusiasts learn what they can about what is effectively a development prototype and see how that fits with commercially available units. Then pick the option that best suits your needs.

The only way I could suggest low rpm transient response and higher rpm torque is achieveable is to go along the lines of a Lancia Delta S4 (supercharged + turbocharged), or accept a degree of compromise.

I know of nobody who has argued Mick-o did not achieve a very strong and driveable result. 450rwhp might exceed Adrian's requirements but I would suggest accepting a trial would help to make any person decide what they like or what they need.

Still waiting to see what pics emerge from the motorsport world regarding fitment of these TR30 things too.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Dale FZ1